223 1:9 16inch barrel light bullets, powder?

F

firekracker50

Member
I was on a search for ultra light compact cary everywhere bolt gun for critter getter 0-300yrds with most all shots being between 50-150. I had pretty much decided on 20 practical or 204 ruger. But then remembered I had a Professional Ordanance Carbon 15 sitting in the safe that I never use. I know it will never shoot hole groups but it's only 4#. If I could find a load that shoots reasonably in it then I can make use of something I already have. It is 16inch skinny deep fluted barrel in 1:9 twist.

I'm wanting to try loading some 33 Shock Hammer, 35 hammer hunters, and 44 hammer hunters i have sitting around in it.

My main decision I have to make now is powder. I don't think I have anything that fits the bill. Looking for something reasonably temp stable because I'll be using this from 0-100deg weather, however at the distances I'll be shooting it, it might not make much difference anyways. But my main concern is keeping the velocity up in the short barrel and cycling in a finicky gas gun. All while having enough accuracy to do some work still. And cheap is a plus, it's not like it's a target/competition setup.

My first thoughts were N130, Benchmark, RE 10x, maybe even RE 7. Does anyone have any experience in short barrel light bullets in 223 rem that could help me choose 1 or 2 powders to test. I have cfe223 and varget that I can also try but I think both are probably too slow of burn rates.
 
Thanks for the shout-out, @cbjr , no worries either.

FK, for your available bullets (33gr, 35gr, and 44gr, correct?) I would go with the 44gr and load it. As for powders, RL 10x and N130 will be your best bets as far as burn rate. I've found that benchmark is supremely stable in the 223, but it behaves like a slower burning powder than its position on charts suggests. A cheap powder that should do well, be moderately stable in the heat and excellently stable in the cold is xterminator. It's a ball powder so it should meter like water. With that bullet weight, I don't think it's possible to put enough in to run into major pressure issues.

With the 44gr you'll be able to take bigger stuff as well, so don't be shy about bigger predators.
 
The 44HH shoot spectacular in my 22-250 1:14 twist with 39.0 grains cfe223 at around 4180fps @ 5deg temps. I haven't got to try it in warmer temps yet. But in my valkyrie I found cfe223 to be horribly temperature sensitive. I still run it with 80.5 bergerfullbores because it averages around 1" a 200yrds with a cheap AR setup 6.5 twist. If I could get varget to the same velocity with the 44HH in my 22-250 I'd rather run that. I don't have any pressure signs at 38.6 grains of varget but I'm around 4000fps. Not sure I can get it to 4100+ but would be great if I can.
Also I found that the 33 and 35 in 22-250 doesn't gain enough velocity to offset the loss of BC. At least not with varget or cfe223. They are both shooting around 4450fps @ 15deg. May have pressure issues when it warms up.

Back to the 223 though. I have never tried xterminator. Only ramshot I've used is magnum in my 7WSM.
Do you think the xterminator slower burn rate will hurt me worse in the short barrel than say n130 or re 10x?
 
firekracker50 said:
The 44HH shoot spectacular in my 22-250 1:14 twist with 39.0 grains cfe223 at around 4180fps @ 5deg temps. I haven't got to try it in warmer temps yet. But in my valkyrie I found cfe223 to be horribly temperature sensitive. I still run it with 80.5 bergerfullbores because it averages around 1" a 200yrds with a cheap AR setup 6.5 twist. If I could get varget to the same velocity with the 44HH in my 22-250 I'd rather run that. I don't have any pressure signs at 38.6 grains of varget but I'm around 4000fps. Not sure I can get it to 4100+ but would be great if I can.
Also I found that the 33 and 35 in 22-250 doesn't gain enough velocity to offset the loss of BC. At least not with varget or cfe223. They are both shooting around 4450fps @ 15deg. May have pressure issues when it warms up.

Back to the 223 though. I have never tried xterminator. Only ramshot I've used is magnum in my 7WSM.
Do you think the xterminator slower burn rate will hurt me worse in the short barrel than say n130 or re 10x?
Click to expand...
Alright, so I'm not surprised what you're seeing with cfe. They say it is more stable in cold, but we definitely see that it isn't in the heat. None of the slow ball types are very heat tolerant.

See here for a temp test with powders in the 223 that I did: https://hammerbullets.com/hammertime/threads/temperature-test-2.798/

The lack of speed gain to offset BC loss with 33/35gr was anticipated. For any given cartridge there is a sweet spot as far as the bullet weight/velocity/BC triad is concerned, and in the 223 with monos that is between 55gr and 65gr. Lighter and you can't gain enough extra velocity to make it worth it, and too heavy and the high BC bullet won't have enough time to stretch its legs out due to case capacity intrusion.

Xterminator is faster than you might think, but it still plays well with heavy bullets. It has burn characteristics that are extremely well balanced and tuned for 223 Remington. You may be able to get more with some faster stuff (N133 will and probably N130 will, but they absolutely will give more pressure and be more sensitive to temperatures), but not meaningfully more. Xterminator works very well in AR class barrel lengths. It's faster than H335, CFE, and benchmark (again, this one acts like a slower powder).
 
T_the_Tinkerer said:
Alright, so I'm not surprised what you're seeing with cfe. They say it is more stable in cold, but we definitely see that it isn't in the heat. None of the slow ball types are very heat tolerant.

See here for a temp test with powders in the 223 that I did: https://hammerbullets.com/hammertime/threads/temperature-test-2.798/

The lack of speed gain to offset BC loss with 33/35gr was anticipated. For any given cartridge there is a sweet spot as far as the bullet weight/velocity/BC triad is concerned, and in the 223 with monos that is between 55gr and 65gr. Lighter and you can't gain enough extra velocity to make it worth it, and too heavy and the high BC bullet won't have enough time to stretch its legs out due to case capacity intrusion.

Xterminator is faster than you might think, but it still plays well with heavy bullets. It has burn characteristics that are extremely well balanced and tuned for 223 Remington. You may be able to get more with some faster stuff (N133 will and probably N130 will, but they absolutely will give more pressure and be more sensitive to temperatures), but not meaningfully more. Xterminator works very well in AR class barrel lengths. It's faster than H335, CFE, and benchmark (again, this one acts like a slower powder).
Click to expand...
So I'm thinking xterminator and maybe h322 with 44HH for my 223?
Any experience with h322?
A 223 pistol shooter on accurate reloader recommended it for use with 40 Vmax. Which will be part of my testing also.
 

223 Remington Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
www.nosler.com www.nosler.com

Interesting that on the Nosler Load data they show the highest velocity with benchmark with 40 grain BTV. N120 is next top velocity. The temp stability and velocity is really hard to look past. Perhaps in the shorter barrel though more velocity is lost per inch than with powders that have fast burn speed characteristics?
H322 shows already low velocity, plus they list most accurate load as the lowest charge tested. Thats not encouraging.
 
firekracker50 said:
So I'm thinking xterminator and maybe h322 with 44HH for my 223?
Any experience with h322?
A 223 pistol shooter on accurate reloader recommended it for use with 40 Vmax. Which will be part of my testing also.
Click to expand...
I was going to mention H322, but you mentioned "cheap" and didn't mention that as a powder you had, so I didn't say anything. But it is ideal for that weight bullet in 223. If you have that, I would try that 1st. If it doesn't work, then 10x or xterminator (which you should always be able to source).

firekracker50 said:

223 Remington Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
www.nosler.com www.nosler.com

Interesting that on the Nosler Load data they show the highest velocity with benchmark with 40 grain BTV. N120 is next top velocity. The temp stability and velocity is really hard to look past. Perhaps in the shorter barrel though more velocity is lost per inch than with powders that have fast burn speed characteristics?
H322 shows already low velocity, plus they list most accurate load as the lowest charge tested. Thats not encouraging.
Click to expand...
I've found that what load books say doesn't always jive with real life. I just got finished testing the 57gr HHT and benchmark gave the lowest velocity at full case compression compared to AR Comp, xterminator, N133, and LT-32 (which is another powder I'd try with that bullet...it isn't hard to find, either). It was like 150fps slower at powder crunching, nose ring causing levels of compression. It really has worked well for me velocity-wise with the 68gr HHT and the 75gr ELD-M, but not with anything lighter.
 
I don't have H322 I know its pretty expensive powder but if it would give me higher vel, more temp stable, and decent groups maybe its worth it. Not like 223 uses a lot of powder. However I didn't realize till today that you can't find it anywhere.
Also midways out of stock of 10x, RE7 and H4198.
They have LT-32, Xterminator, N130, and Benchmark.

N130 could probably work well also in my 45/70. So it could serve double duty.

Benchmark could also but doesn't sound like it's a good bet for 40gr 223Rem.

The one powder seems like most everyone agrees would be a good potential is LT-32, of course it's the most expensive lol. But I don't know that it makes since to run. A $65 benchrest powder in a sub 4# cabon AR that probably can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Xterminator is probbaly going to be the one I can always find and it's cheap. Maybe I'll grab a can of it. And if it miraculously turns out that thus gun can shoot then ill revisit.
 
BFD said:
@firekracker50 - I just want to know why you don't run the 57HHT?
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I haven't done any testing. I have some I can try. My main goal is close range and as flat shooting as possible. If it takes 400+ yards for the 57 to catch up to the 44 in velocity it just doesn't make since for my application. I can try them both and see what velocity I can get from each.
Rather have the speed and flat traj in the 0-250 range than the energy.

Maybe I'll find the 57 I can get great speed and catch the 44 in 150yrds... but I doubt it.

Plan on also testing 53 Vmax and 4p Vmax in this gun.

I already have a valkyrie I run 80.5 bergers in for longer range gas gun. Just started testing the 62ELD-VT in it. And I'll probably get a 22ARC soon. If it's easier to load for and outperforms the valk and is easier on brass I'll sell the valk. But that guns too heavy to tote around all the time. Same goes for my 22-250s.

This carbon 15 is 4# and you barely know your carrying it.
 
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firekracker50 said:
I haven't done any testing. I have some I can try. My main goal is close range and as flat shooting as possible. If it takes 400+ yards for the 57 to catch up to the 44 in velocity it just doesn't make since for my application. I can try them both and see what velocity I can get from each.
Rather have the speed and flat traj in the 0-250 range than the energy.

Maybe I'll find the 57 I can get great speed and catch the 44 in 150yrds... but I doubt it.

Plan on also testing 53 Vmax and 4p Vmax in this gun.

I already have a valkyrie I run 80.5 bergers in for longer range gas gun. Just started testing the 62ELD-VT in it. And I'll probably get a 22ARC soon. If it's easier to load for and outperforms the valk and is easier on brass I'll sell the valk. But that guns too heavy to tote around all the time. Same goes for my 22-250s.

This carbon 15 is 4# and you barely know your carrying it.
Click to expand...
I love meeting a fellow psychopath! :ROFLMAO:
 
RL7 works great in my 16" AR with 40 grain vmaxs, but im not gonna buy anymore after I'm out. The Alliant prices are just too crazy right now. I see LT30, and LT32 on sale somewhat regularly, hopefully get the price down to normal for a pound. Maybe accurate 2200 is worth a shot.
 
Ddubs20 said:
RL7 works great in my 16" AR with 40 grain vmaxs, but im not gonna buy anymore after I'm out. The Alliant prices are just too crazy right now. I see LT30, and LT32 on sale somewhat regularly, hopefully get the price down to normal for a pound. Maybe accurate 2200 is worth a shot.
Click to expand...
I would stick to the LT powders. They love bullets in the 55gr and below. LT-32 can work with 60gr and below, but likes stuff like the52gr VMAX. LT-30 likes all of the lighter stuff like 40-50gr varmint bullets.
 
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