(Originally posted 9/25/2021)
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday
how best to achieve an immediate, effective kill shot ? “ bangflop “ is the common term & most desirable result . No running, no tracking & no lost injured animals
immediate kills depend upon an adequate combination of three basic things
penertration , wound channel & shot placement. Here we are talking about a heart/lung shot , not involving the central nervous system ( CNS )
A dedicated group of individuals have been working on developing “ VELOCITY IMPACT BRACKETS “
this is not a newly thought up whizz bang theory. It is based of a lot of years & huge amount of kills . Some were impressive-some not so much over a lot of species from duiker to elephant with a lot in between
These are from my own eyes in the field ( I have not shot a elephant only observed )
The concept of velocity brackets is very simple. You have to have adequate penetration, your bullet must do extensive tissue damage , and there has to be sufficient energy/speed to allow the bullet to do it’s work . This is not solely about velocity. It is about IMPACT velocity & bullet performance @ your desired range
Pick the range @ which you are most likely to make your shot . Adjust your projectile weight . Calculate your impact velocity @ that range a simple example would be if your target range is 250 yard a 30cal 180 pill impact of 2600 drop to a 124 & you get 3000
You will now find you are in a very efficient killing bracket @ that distance with your rifle if you have satisfied all 3 components of the efficienct killing triangle
this is the foundation of the concept of velocity brackets
More details to come in following posts
cheers
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Your the Man
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Absolutely correct!
This is excellent guidance and well founded.
farleg
Platinum Member
VELOCITY BRACKETS
UPDATED FROM ORIGINAL
1800-2100
2100-2400
2400-2750
2750-3200
3200 PLUS
Move to more recent times ( hammer time) & ive been blessed to have like-minded individuals with similar observations & results. We have shared notes / experiences & thoughts to come up with the following brackets that are showing patterns in efficiency in how quickly an animal goes down from bang flops to a mile or more of trailing !!
Now please don’t think these are only for speed demons just look @ the Grendel with lighter pills than the norm , as it’s awesome . The key is to get your rifle ( regardless of calibre ) to its highest potential @ the yardage you intend to shoot too
IMPACT BRACKETS ( FPS )( these below were original brackets but left to show how we adjusted as more info came forward )
1800-2100 as per hammers lowest impact recommendation
2100-2400
2400-2700
2700-3000 these 2 cross over quite often
3000-3500 so maybe a 2800-3200 new bracket ( ?) due to hammers
3500-3700
3700 plus
I’ve had buff run from 375&458
Get the velocity up & that run diminishes with ea step up in velocity bracket ( if mechanics met once again) on average
Please don’t take that as I’ve been using a 45-70 400gr pill & I’ll go to a 223 50 gr pill & take elk .
If you have been using x caliber stay with it & increase velocity. You will see a noticeable difference on average AS LONG AS THE MECHANICS ARE FULLY MET AS THE #1 PRIORITY first & foremost. A 220 swift may provide incredible velocity but the other 2 equally important legs of the efficiency triangle will not be supported
Eg the 101 blackout & 180hh that butterbean is going to post on video the 101 will be no good on elk , it will kill but does not meet the requirements for good mechanics ( ioo)
The easiest way to evaluate this IMO is the way bojo34 does & his method is so simple & id like him to way in & show us his tables & what he does if he doesn’t mind
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday joe
definatly no one bullet / calibre combo across a range of animals
but now we enter your world & I do say your minion is close to it (heads up people this is the 101 blackout in his rum )
Once bean posts the video a little more will become visual of what we are on about
but I’m also very interested in that 120 lever but for now I’ll get a deer to stand broadside instead of a angle to show what I call a true bangflop & velocity brackets are the best way to achieve this
yes the anal taswegian is hard to please
cheers
joe16
Platinum Member
The term "Splat Factor" seems to have been replaced by velocity brackets and such
I came here for "Splat Factor"!!! Please tell me this term is still alive and well.
This is too awesome
Joe
bojo34
Full Member
Hey Farleg,
Appreciate the mention. Here's a sample of the simple table I make to compare impact velocities when considering different pills for a given cartridge:
152HH 151AH 137HH
MV 3585 3564 3700
100 3344 3295 3407
200 3109 3031 3121
300 2880 2778 2845
400 2660 2536 2582
500 2450 2307 2333
In this particular case I was looking for highest impact velocities for an elk load in my 300WM and my most common hunting range is in the 300-400 yard range which is why those ranges are highlighted. Full details in the thread "300WM...152HH, 151AH, 137HH surprising results." Very simple to build this template on an excel spreadsheet. I start with a sample pack for the pills I want to consider, establish MV for each pill, drop the MV/listed BC/0 range/any environmental adjustments, etc (think most of you know the drill) into a ballistic calculator and then input the data to the excel spreadsheet. May sound like a lot of work but really pretty simple. Also may seem unnecessary but it can lead to some surprising results like above.....I wasn't expecting the 152HH would hang in there with the other two listed above. Could be unique to my rig/available powders but glad I spent the time and really boosted my confidence in the result as I head out for elk this rifle season. Once the template is built easy to adjust for different cartridges/preferred ranges, etc.
bojo34
Full Member
Cheers
Interesting stuff Farleg thanks for this! I assume that you chose the breakpoints for these brackets because you saw an uptick in terminal performance at or around each of these levels? So here's my initial question with respect to putting these brackets to use: would you suggest that it's only worth going lighter/faster if you can get into the next bracket? Here's a specific example.....let's say I've worked up a load for my old 7x57 with the 120HH and given my likely hunting range know my impact velocity would be in the 2400-2600 range. By dropping to the 101HH I can get those likely impact velocities up to 2500-2700. Are you suggesting that's not really worth it because I will still be in the 2400-2700 bracket and won't likely see an uptick in terminal performance?
Hope that makes sense. This is a really intriguing thought process don't mean to try to pin you down as I'm sure there is a large "soft science" component to this given the data is largely observational but just trying to figure out how to put this info to it's best use. Thanks again for all you do!
mbruce
Platinum Member
bojo34 - I’m just chiming in for conversation.
I wonder if it’s as simple as if the % decrease in weight is larger than the % increase in speed then maybe it’s a not an effective move?
I haven’t ran the numbers…the weight decrease % may always be larger than the velocity increase % ?
in your example the 101 is a 16% decrease in weight ( (120-101)/120) and the velocity increase is 4%. ((2500-2600)/2500)
bojo34
Full Member
mbruce=> good thought but I suspect it's not that simple. Evidence from all of Farleg's great work seems to be mounting in the direction that velocity is to be desired above all else and some seem to be starting to argue to the exclusion of all else. Not to re-hash the energy debate but recall that in that equation mass gets halved and velocity gets squared. Again, an imperfect/irrelevant measure of lethality for sure, but if it's at least directionally correct with respect to measuring potential, then halving the percentage decrease in weight from 16% to 8% and squaring the percentage increase in velocity from 4% to 16% would say the swap in my example might be worth it. Again, not arguing energy is relevant here just using the formula as an example of what can happen when you apply an exponential emphasis on velocity over other factors. Small increases in velocity can overwhelm decreases in other factors.
Don't mean to get too bogged down in minutiae here these velocity brackets seem intriguing and potentially really helpful to those of us without ultra mags getting 3700+.
harperc
Global Moderator
You really need one LOL! Too much fun.
Good tables.
mbruce
Platinum Member
ha, minutia is mostly what we obsess and debate over.
I think the question is relevant though....At what point is the speed increase meaningful
harperc
Global Moderator
I'll play.
If i don't seen 500 fps difference I'll go with the more traditional weights. In the table listed I see no range at which I wouldn't use the 152HH.
Again kind of the triangle of needs, game size, and range.
The 124 or 101 might have select use, but not listed.
harperc
Global Moderator
Comparisons may not be as useful within a particular cartridge. One may need to compare a 124 from the 300 RUM's to the 152 in a .300 Winchester etc.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Speed will always be the biggest multiplier
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday guys
First off bojo34 thanks for that perfect
Initial question lol you have others I guess lol
I maybe a little vague as my body is not what it use to be & the toothpicks are in to help out a little also
I think you’ve already got your answer bojo as test packs will sort the up in the air part lol but you are correct ive seen these brackets across multiple species that a step up is observed some animals do defy this but it’s your assumption that holds true in real life as in my 7-08
& the 3 pills 101/119&120 all fall inside a bracket & only end up 75 FPS quickest to slowest & in this case I just went the heavier but still haven’t worked out which one lol
I’ll come back when I have a clearer head if that doesn’t answer your initial question ?
Sorry for the being absent was out splatting a few more deer with my son & fdoing some maintenance on our hunting property
Got some really good data & the triangle was left lacking & it showed
Gave the 101 a good run 2 deer & no bangflop & thought the mojo was gone or they just got bullet proof
so out came the 124 bangflop
Outcome the 137 bangflop
Back to 101 run
My minds made up & terminally it’s easy to see why & I’ll post pics once I get all of them from my sons phone as this muppet left his back @ camp
Outcome 135 tinkered lever in 375 rum
No worries about a bangflop here these are a hand grenade yet not as savage on meat as the 101 actually they may have lost a cup on one deer & other was spine so that was more & probably 3 to 4 cups totally acceptable IMO
I’ll come back after some zzz & see if I can add my 2 cents to that energy part
Yes I don’t like energy & it’s better if I answer this with a clear head or the blue star boys will have my guts for garters
( not having a go @ you mbruce just where I believe energy should be )
Cheers to all
joe16
Platinum Member
Farleg
Wow bum me out on the 101s, but that is exactly why what you're doing is so important thank you for doing all the fun work that's why when I joined this place I thought it was so valuable for Steve and Brian to have such a large database available Top Notch Farleg. Not to belittle anybody else's research but this guy shoots so much sh-t it's hard to dismiss the value of it. My new 300 rum was sent off to the gunsmith in preparation for the 101s now it looks like it's in preparation for the 120s doesn't matter to me I'm just looking for a quick and efficient harvest!!
The 101s will be used just to blast stuff now, not a problem
And this place is too awesome
Joe
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Seems we are narrowing the field.
Once again, the aspect of needed shank to total bullet weight is coming into the equation. The 101 30 cal is like a flying ash tray. Very little retained shank to help the bullet carry through and penetrate. Remember, the 101 was developed for the 300 Blackout, at MUCH lower velocity, to ensure performance at much lower energy levels.
Seems we are settling on a need for around 50-60% shank length for best overall performance in all aspects. Petal weights are also part of the ideal equation
gltaylor
Global Moderator
when Butterbean posts Farlegs results on the 101s, the above will be very graphically and clearly demonstrated.
mbruce
Platinum Member
farleg - my response isn't energy related, that's not what this thread is about.
I like the velocity brackets...Speed kills, there's no denying that.
Just curious more than anything how much speed increase does it take to make a difference in terminal ballistics.
Real-world example...I'm using the 120g for my 7-08....is it worth dropping down to the 100gr for the velocity increase.
In my 6 Creedmoor that would be going from the 88gr to the new 55gr or the 70gr.
bojo34
Full Member
Don't mean to confuse things further and perhaps I should wait for Farleg's response but maybe by pointing out my impression here his answer will be a skosh more complete?
I think we're tossing apples and oranges around here. My impression was that Farleg's comments regarding shortfalls with the 101 were in reference to the .284 101 out of his 7mm-08 vs the .284 119ah and 120HH.
I think Joe and gltaylor are talking about the .308 101 at hyper velocities??
Those are two very different equations and really speak to what''s on some (many) of our minds......is what some of you are observing with the really lightweight pills out of the ultrmags at hyper vleocity levels applicable to the more pdestrian calibers most of us have? That's where the brackets come in maybe?
Farleg please clarify I might be a bit lost here.
joe16
Platinum Member
It seems as if our Wonder from Down Under did combined the two when he posted using the 101 124 and the 137 those are 30 caliber numbers sorry fellows if gl and I Robbed your thread my apologies.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
The 101 in question is the 30 cal Blackout
bojo34
Full Member
Got it, thanks BB....my misreading of Farleg's post.
joe16
Platinum Member
I didn't think gl and I were sitting out in left field Picking Daisies but it wouldn't be the first time
for me that is I can't speak for g l
mevertsen
Junior Member
From what I am understanding I some of theses tests, is there needs to be a control.
Even reading some of farlegs posts I am getting confused on what cartridge he is using, etc, which for me makes it a bit difficult to follow.
I have a certain load for my 30-06 which is quite predictable, boring actually in how well it works.
I have dropped deer and antelope in their tracks with less than perfect shots. I have also hit an antelope in the lungs, and it still ran 200 yards despite having chunks hanging out the exit side.
For me to understand the best, I would have to see different weight bullets- multiple kills with each, from. The same cartridge to fully understand which is the best for that application.
Unfortunately it's not like ballistics gelatin which we can measure density on. Some animals are just plain tougher than others and sometimes there is just that fluke which happens to work perfectly.
Edit to add....
I have load worked up for that 30-06 with the 152 HH which I will use this year. Will see how it works out my desert bighorn. 2900 fps out of a 22 inch barrel -not screaming, but it should get me 1800 fps to about 600 yards, which is plenty far for me.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday mbruce
my bad sorry I was struggling to stay awake & the clear thoughts evaded me & a bit clearer now I think ( as they do sometimes when I’ve had enough sleep )
I’ll answer mevertsen & bojo directly to not muddy the waters hopefully
your 7-08 will depend on what you can achieve velocity wise & range to shoot @
Mine is mainly a kids rifle so I didn’t push& are most common range 150 yrd (50to 200 yrd 99% of shots )
the velocity of these
101@3370
119@3275
131@3010
go to the brackets & the way bojo does up
the 101@ 119 are realistic neck & neck & I’ll go the heavy ea time yet the 131falls short
here’s where they fell @150 @300 ft elevation
101 2918
119 2860
131 2676
even noting that @ 200 the first 2 stay in the 2700+ bracket
to me no real difference in the velocity bracket it’s where they will fall that’s the key as long as the 3 pillars of the triangle are met
a simple way to evaluate this deserves a seperate post as it’s simple but very deserving of its own part
now your 6 cm I’d do the same & see where the velocities fall & I’ll post up some info to mevertsen to hopefully clear the air & not duplicate & confuse to much
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday bojo
the brackets are the important part regardless of caliber
it’s the impact velocity where our combo falls that’s the important part & which bracket
I think I’ve answered your question in the previous post to mbruce ? If not let me no
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday mevertsen
very valid points & I take notice of what your saying 100% & agree 100%
sorry for confusion just pull me up if I’m not clear as this is a extremely important equation we all should do
moving on
I really don’t like putting numbers out there as I don’t like the part of but look @ me syndrome
yet in this case it does need a form of clarity
ive slowed down a lot these days
last year on my property we shot well in excess of 100 fallow deer
the trips to buff country we shot well in excess of 100 animals
my mates no the true numbers & I would rather that
this season ( I have crop protection permits) from now to our actual season ( March ) we should take in excess of a 100 more fallow
over my life culling has been a big part over a lot of species even a second job for a lot of years
if you want numbers I can’t give total sorry as 2 many but with records that were kept over 100,000 in 10 years were achieved over a wide variety of animals in Aussie & Africa
now this still doesn’t make me a guru as I’ve got mates still doing this & a couple achieve huge numbers in ea day out ( chopper culling) these are the guys I listen to along with my mate in buff country& African mates
Now these brackets are not in a controlled situation granted but I have observed differences on the average & just ask the speedemon club on video before I even got to the animal with the first 30 cal 101 I was questioning the effectiveness due to a animal’s reaction yet it took 3 to 4 steps
this is not the 3 to 4 steps it’s their reaction that tells us how a projectile preforms & im confident in my abilities to access how a projectile preforms on a very limited number of shots but I do like numbers of animals min 10 & really like 20 as that will tell us true patterns
but 30 cal 101 I’m done in the rum but a 308 I’m going to try
as for calibers yes 30 cal is my most commonly used & from 7.62x39 to 30-378 mainly 300 rum these days
also used a wide variety of other calibers but the 6.5 is the one I really lack the knowledge in
yes animals vary in toughness & even within species but in my eyes it’s the patterns I just can’t look past
your 30-06 & 152 will be a fine choice I’m sure & do you proud & as a multiple species pill it will be hard to beat as it does cover the triangle for the majority of animals
hope that answers your queries & we also have a thought on how to evaluate on a test media that isn’t expensive like gel that everyone can do
more to come on this as I’ve rambled enough & it’s not about me it’s getting the best for a individual that we no of & until someone shows us a better way this is it
mevertsen
Junior Member
Man that is still a lot to take in.
This is my first foray into mono bullets, so there is still a lot for me to learn and understand.
Tha ks for the explanation.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
joe16
Platinum Member
Nice job Butterbean
Steve Davis
Administrator
I think there is some give and take here for sure. If I can run a .308 181g Hammer Hunter at 3400 fps in a rum I think it will be much more effective than a 124g Hammer Hunter from a 30-06 at the same vel. So there is most definitely a projectile size matters in the equation. More shed weight equals more shock. Larger retained shank carries more vel all the way through the animal. Petal weight carries more retained vel through the animal. Larger petals make bigger wound channels.
I used a very easy to wrap your head around example on purpose. It becomes more subtle with many of the, "Which bullet should I use scenarios." Kinda like the discussion we had the other day about bullet choice for a 300 wsm with range to 500y. I lean to the 166g Hammer Hunter at 3200 fps vs the lighter bullets running several fps faster. This preference for me is from seeing these bullets perform from close to long range fired from a 30-06, at nothing close to high vel, with stellar results. We have seen enough bang flops with lung shots from mid weight bullets, for caliber, impacting from low to high 2000's fps to know they work extremely well. There is most definitely something to the amount of nose that is shedding and the shock that it creates. Let alone the greater wound channel form larger shed petals.
We will be playing with the light super high vel bullets this year some more. In the past we shot a bunch of white tail deer with the 124g Hammer Hunter from a 30-06ai at 3500 fps at 300y and in. It was simply devastating. Have we had devastating results from 1000 fps slower impacts with larger for caliber bullets? Yes most definitely. Brings to mind a 500y muley doe with a 92g Hammer Hunter from our 25x47 Lapua. Frontal shot recovered in the hind quarter. Never even twiched. Impact vel about 2200 fps. A one off, but not expected from the kind of shot.
farleg
Platinum Member
Great stuff bean
Ok people this is not just @ those speeds as it went through the velocity brackets & energy numbers all the way to 1860 velocity
The same pattern exists all the way down the line & same velocity different pill exhibits the same visual
Yes not recommending the 101 & you’ll see why when the pics are put up of the vitals & that pills characteristic @ hyper velocities move them to the velocity they were intended for & I do believe they will preform better than the hyper
There is a line that we need to follow & that’s the 3 legs of the triangle
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday mevertsen
take your time as monos are a huge step & undoubtedly my opinion the hammers are the best I’ve seen ( all time not just monos) so you’ve started with the best & if you start @ the heavier side & baby steps never hurt anyone
ultimatly we are just trying to put forward our position on the most effective killing system we have seen & I don’t won’t to jinx gltaylor with these lightweights but his results from many kills in the heavier pills & now a handful in the lightweights are chalk & cheese & he can explain that in his eyes
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday Steve I’m definitely not saying hammers are not working well @ the low to high 2000’s far from it it’ & I’ll back your projectiles over any other brand
why ? is simple to see people get the best possible results when they squeeze off on their chosen quarry & I think I’ve put that across pretty well & will continue to push for the better of animal & individual & I’ll also push you & Brian to make the holy grail of pills
yes some give & take for sure & im not itching for a brawl we are just trying to help the general person get a more efficient kill
if some one can come up with a better way I’m all ears & would gladly use but I’m buggered if I’ve seen one from TKO to KPS they all are left lacking when across the board of calibres are used & favours energy which is overrated IMO
With all due respect move to your big dog & the 214&227 yet you explained perfectly why you’ve chosen the lighter & even done the sums on the 124 & I can see why you have gone that route
move that to the design of your individual pills & now where entering into a new chapter & one a few of us have been paying real close attention to as the next step
Is that 166 a better option
It’s a pill that shows a lot of promise due to design
the best leveller I’ve seen are horses & donkeys you kill these guys bangflop 50% & your in uncharted territory ( only one pill I’ve ever used do higher ) & ive shot many many thousands of these
now I no you won’t shoot a horse but the donkeys are going to be a eye opener in that big dog & can’t wait
& Im betting neither will bangflop 50% with non cns shots yes velocity alone is not it nor will size
no right nor wrong & everyone has a different perspective & needs
it’s in their own range that we are trying to show potentially a little better way % wise of animal going down quicker within their own rifle & definitely not saying go buy a bigger gun
I think we are dancing around the same maypole a balance is needed & a lot of results with hammers are bangflop across a lot of those brackets no doubting that yet bambi to buff the greater % of bangflop or a lesser run distance are from the higher velocities as long as the other legs are met on the triangle
this is the easiest way we’ve seen to get a increase in performance & the fur calculator to me doesn’t lie
is it the 100% accurate true across the board of everything its going to do theory @ that velocity
NO definitely not but it’s the best I’ve seen
& until someone comes up with a formula this is what I use
no offence intended
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday thought I better post some pics of the 30 cal 101 blackout @ hyper velocities & what happened
very interesting data IMO
this shot was impact around 4K
placement behind the shoulder broadside
through centre of lungs
on impact this pill exhibits more sideways bubble than length & it shows in the wounds I believe
on entry it took 3 ribs out split diaphragmmajorly
& slightly ruptured stomach & a lot of blood between hide , meat & hide parted
the first lung was around 3/4 gone
move to the second lung & the shank had slowed considerably ( no petals made it this far or any other wound damage in lung & still looked as it was pretty functional ) classic solid slow wound through the lung just under 1/2 inch hole ( that’s no other damage just the
permanent wound channel from shank )
shank exited just busting one rib on way through & about calibre exit
Steve Davis
Administrator
Sep 28, 2021 at 8:40am via mobile riceman, carsyn22, and 3 more like thisQuoteEditlikePost OptionsPost by Steve Davis on Sep 28, 2021 at 8:40am
farleg Avatar
Sep 28, 2021 at 12:00am farleg said:
Steve Davis Avatar
Sep 27, 2021 at 8:11pm Steve Davis said:
I think there is some give and take here for sure. If I can run a .308 181g Hammer Hunter at 3400 fps in a rum I think it will be much more effective than a 124g Hammer Hunter from a 30-06 at the same vel. So there is most definitely a projectile size matters in the equation. More shed weight equals more shock. Larger retained shank carries more vel all the way through the animal. Petal weight carries more retained vel through the animal. Larger petals make bigger wound channels.
I used a very easy to wrap your head around example on purpose. It becomes more subtle with many of the, "Which bullet should I use scenarios." Kinda like the discussion we had the other day about bullet choice for a 300 wsm with range to 500y. I lean to the 166g Hammer Hunter at 3200 fps vs the lighter bullets running several fps faster. This preference for me is from seeing these bullets perform from close to long range fired from a 30-06, at nothing close to high vel, with stellar results. We have seen enough bang flops with lung shots from mid weight bullets, for caliber, impacting from low to high 2000's fps to know they work extremely well. There is most definitely something to the amount of nose that is shedding and the shock that it creates. Let alone the greater wound channel form larger shed petals.
We will be playing with the light super high vel bullets this year some more. In the past we shot a bunch of white tail deer with the 124g Hammer Hunter from a 30-06ai at 3500 fps at 300y and in. It was simply devastating. Have we had devastating results from 1000 fps slower impacts with larger for caliber bullets? Yes most definitely. Brings to mind a 500y muley doe with a 92g Hammer Hunter from our 25x47 Lapua. Frontal shot recovered in the hind quarter. Never even twiched. Impact vel about 2200 fps. A one off, but not expected from the kind of shot.
Gday Steve I’m definitely not saying hammers are not working well @ the low to high 2000’s far from it it’ & I’ll back your projectiles over any other brand
why ? is simple to see people get the best possible results when they squeeze off on their chosen quarry & I think I’ve put that across pretty well & will continue to push for the better of animal & individual & I’ll also push you & Brian to make the holy grail of pills
yes some give & take for sure & im not itching for a brawl we are just trying to help the general person get a more efficient kill
if some one can come up with a better way I’m all ears & would gladly use but I’m buggered if I’ve seen one from TKO to KPS they all are left lacking when across the board of calibres are used & favours energy which is overrated IMO
With all due respect move to your big dog & the 214&227 yet you explained perfectly why you’ve chosen the lighter & even done the sums on the 124 & I can see why you have gone that route
move that to the design of your individual pills & now where entering into a new chapter & one a few of us have been paying real close attention to as the next step
Is that 166 a better option It’s a pill that shows a lot of promise due to design
the best leveller I’ve seen are horses & donkeys you kill these guys bangflop 50% & your in uncharted territory ( only one pill I’ve ever used do higher ) & ive shot many many thousands of these
now I no you won’t shoot a horse but the donkeys are going to be a eye opener in that big dog & can’t wait
& Im betting neither will bangflop 50% with non cns shots yes velocity alone is not it nor will size
no right nor wrong & everyone has a different perspective & needs
it’s in their own range that we are trying to show potentially a little better way % wise of animal going down quicker within their own rifle & definitely not saying go buy a bigger gun
I think we are dancing around the same maypole a balance is needed & a lot of results with hammers are bangflop across a lot of those brackets no doubting that yet bambi to buff the greater % of bangflop or a lesser run distance are from the higher velocities as long as the other legs are met on the triangle
this is the easiest way we’ve seen to get a increase in performance & the fur calculator to me doesn’t lie
is it the 100% accurate true across the board of everything its going to do theory @ that velocity
NO definitely not but it’s the best I’ve seen
& until someone comes up with a formula this is what I use
no offence intended
cheers
No offense taken and none meant.
Don't get me wrong, there is most definitely a correlation of vel to quick kills. Speed most definitely kills!
I just don't want folks thinking they need high vel to get great results from Hammers. There is a copper bullet reputation out there that we deal with daily. Many people think that extra vel is needed to get a copper bullet to work properly. Hammers don't fall in that category. They work very well at high or low velocity. Much diff than what many hunters have experienced with other mono bullets.
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Absolutely correct.
Good morning Steve. I see my latest batches of bullets are on the way. Thanks!
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I agree and there is absolutely no doubt they work at standard velocity’s and you don’t have to be in the hyper velocities to take advantage of this, it just doesn’t take much effort to move into the next higher bracket, 200 FPS can make a world of difference
farleg
Platinum Member
Thanks for the clarification Steve all cool this side of the ditch
I hope that we are not coming across as you need more speed to make hammers work ? As far from that
our philosophy is simple hammers work very well through all of the velocity brackets
where we are is what we’ve witnessed & learnt along this journey & just want people to have a even better experience
the big one for the majority of people is trying to put the puzzle together ( I’m not saying anyone’s dumb it’s a hard thing to get ones head around until the penny drops it took me ages & im dumb )
this puzzle we believe is the easiest system for people to use in our opinions
eg you have a bloke who has x rifle with a x twist
normally we look @ the highest weight bullet that twist will run & work up a load that on paper shoots lights out yet terminal the chance of the true twist being out is ever so real hence terminal performance is compromised or even if twist is correct correct still has a chance of less than ideal penertration on the bigger animals & I think why some results are what they are when if we look @ it this way of velocity brackets only occasionally the heavy will ever be used so TSF will not be compromised
& the added bonus of the speed hence brackets that are visual just not scientific
yes we don’t even have to worry about SF as really for a lot of us SF is a foreign entity ( I’ve got my head around it these days ) just look @ how many people the members advise against a certain weight due to twist & that twist is usually unmeasured
taking into account the mechanics of the triangle is paramount
don’t worry we will put that carrot on the stick for you to nibble a little more
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
Trying to keep up!
1) Hammers will expand (perform) at low velocities. A pretty good thread on LRH currently showing that. Which is where some of the doubt regarding mono's (Hammer's) creeps in.
2) More velocity in any cartridge/bullet combo is a good thing. It's why some of us have bigger cartridges.
3) In the "standard" cartridges because of the effectiveness of Hammer's we can drop weight, increase velocity, optimize twist, and generally be more effective.
4) Most of us won't utilize the lower velocity threshold, and the high velocity capabilities are something to be exploited.
5) There isn't a replacement for displacement. A big bullet going very fast still trumps a little bullet going fast. It could be unnecessary, but there it is. I would like a 150 grain .338 for my RUM, just to see how it compares with the 124 grain 6.5 in the field. The cup and core type bullets on antelope are much more destructive. Too much more actually.
6) ButterBean you're getting good with the video stuff
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday Carl
spot on with the exception of number 2 as it just needs a little tweaking & my anal side
I would think the following 2 words in capitals were missing
“ more velocity in any cartridge/ bullet combo INVOLVING HAMMERS is a good thing . It’s why some of us have bigger cartridges “
cause I think it’s evident on what happens to the cup & core guys
if it’s that test on pigs @ 1800 impacts ?
yes there’s everyone answer & the guys that are trying to debunk hammers effectiveness are usually twist telated imo hence stability factor of 1.5 should be for the paper punches
others mean no harm to hammers & are innocent parties of the old SF factor rule
you will get away with it on deer or like most of the time but move to elk size it’s showing up as a slower opening of the projectile & sometimes retained petals
bears or buff definitely don’t use that old rule
The triangle is the key ( I’ve pinched this from GL but it’s so true )
my 2 cents
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
I laughed at this as I spent time considering using Hammer's in the sentence. More time than it would have taken to just type it. I thought I was getting redundant like an infomercial so I didn't. Then jumped to the assumption everyone would get it, there is that assumption thing.
Yes they shot the staged pigs at 800 yards.
farleg
Platinum Member
On both
Don't feel bad on assumptions just join the clan i say
Its all cool i need reminding now & then also as the new comers don't get what we are on about all the time so it's pull us up people if your unsure as no dumb questions
Clarity is always good
Yes saw that one , nice info & reassurance once again for the people in those lower spectrum velocities
Cheers
cbjr
Senior Member
Not to derail, but is this hog test a video or a thread somewhere and where do I find it? I'd like to see/read it. Thanks!
harperc
Global Moderator
www.longrangehunting.com/threads/longrangish-hammer-bullet-shots.280597/?utm_source=threadloom&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ed1369&utm_content=iss972#post-2294400
jakesch
Senior Member
I think I understand what you guys are saying but I want to verify. So for this fall I am planning on taking my 338 RUM on my elk hunt and I have the two options shown below. What do you do if both bullets are within the same bracket at your given range? Do you go heavier or faster?
For example, at 400y Sea Level would you choose the 213 gr HH going 2614 fps or the 260 gr HH going 2490 fps even though they are in the same velocity bracket (2400 to 2700)? Then at altitude, you go with the 213's because it is in the next bracket (2806fps vs 2642fps)?
Sealevel 8000 feet
213 260 213 260
0 3340 3065 3340 3065
50 3245 2990 3271 3010
100 3152 2916 3203 2956
150 3059 2828 3135 2903
200 2968 2756 3068 2850
250 2877 2684 3002 2797
300 2788 2614 2936 2745
350 2701 2545 2870 2693
400 2614 2490 2806 2642
450 2530 2409 2742 2591
500 2447 2343 2679 2541
550 2365 2278 2616 2491
600 2285 2214 2555 2442
650 2207 2151 2494 2394
700 2130 2089 2434 2346
750 2055 2028 2375 2298
800 1981 1968 2317 2252
850 1909 1909 2259 2205
900 1838 1850 2203 2160
950 1768 1793 2147 2114
1000 1699 1736 2092 2070
harperc
Global Moderator
The great thin about the .338 RUM is there aren't really any bad choices for ungulates at any range.
I'd go with the 213's.
I like terminal velocity at 3000 fps or close. It doesn't mean either of these don't do it farther.
I'm still shooting up a bunch of ammo, and haven't got to the box of 213's on the bench. May have to shoot out my existing barrel first.
I have shot the Accubonds from 180-250, and can say on the classic broadsides the 3500 fps of the 180's are incredibly more devastating than the 250's. I've made "head" shots to 800 yards on the IPSC type targets, rock chucks to 500 in extreme wind (great spotter), and the only real miss was not holding hair on a distant coyote.
Recoil will be lighter with the 213's. The Hammer won't have the penetration issues that show up time to time with the light Accubond.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday jakesch
those figures set out perfectly what to do if we work with the 400 as a exercise & shows perfectly how these brackets work
both pills @400 feet fall in the same bracket @400 yards so
I’d go 260 & the heavier is the best option if they both fall in the one bracket ( triangle needs to be looked @ if met & easy test for that as Steve’s mentioned in other threads & we can put that up again if people are unsure or better still members who post their experience with that pill on what animal with the shot angle & if penertration was achieved or where shank stopped is the true indication velocity/twist also please)
move to 8000 feet @400 yards
& the 213 is it
these brackets can be even refined a fair bit yet I think
( yes I’m never happy) but if we use these as a general rule & the triangle your in great territory
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
The never happy bit applies to a lot of us nit pickers.
However! When it comes to the .338 RUM like I said it's hard to pick a bad Hammer bullet from the line up for elk. There are 4 between these 2 I would have complete confidence in.
Back to the 2 choices they are so close in terminal velocity, I may have missed it, but how much velocity do you think makes a difference where there is so much overlap.
I can't imagine a situation the 213 would not serve me well for elk in the .338 RUM. I have hunted them from below sea level, to a few thousand feet. I haven't killed one with a Hammer, but I can't see where I would need different.
Although the 248 in my H&H holds more appeal in the swamp.
jakesch
Senior Member
What kind of velocity do you get with the 248? I kind of overlooked some of the middle ones going for speed and BC first. Lol
I would love to see the triangle talked about. Must have overlooked it.
riceman
Global Moderator
Jakesch, looking @ just the numbers both Harperc and Farleg are essentially correct.
Harperc for 0 to 400, 213 for velocity gain.
Farleg for 400 and out 260 maintains Velocity little better.
The 248hh best of both!
I personally don't have a 338. Either one you choose, go in confidence that bull won't know what hit him!
Looking forward to the pictures.
harperc
Global Moderator
Really wasn't clear OOOps. I was speaking of my .375 H&H (Holland and Holland) with the 248 grain HH (Hammer Hunter). My favorite jungle rifle. 2800-2900 fps MV is about where that lives.
I would guess the 246 HH (Hammer Hunter) in the .338 RUM 3000-3100 fps MV.
Point being a bunch of good choices for North American game in there.
I'm a believer in high velocity impacts I like the brackets, unsure where the close ones come together like every one else.
I also believe once the hypervelocity advantage runs out, there are many combo's still performing well. Whats true in the 6MM needing more to work with, isn't as true in the medium bores. I am dropping to the new 55 grain in my 6mm, and dropping the 200 grains in my 06 for either the 152 or 166. So believe more velocity has a lot to offer on our smaller game especially inside a couple of hundred yards. I'm not discounting velocity at all, but I get a little lost on some of the application.
I think the triangle is Impact Velocity, Penetration, Vital Tissue Destruction (Bullet Performance)
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday
Jakesch the triangle is made up of 3 main components
Penertration
Wound channel
Shot placement
Without any of these the triangle fails
GLTAYLOR is responsible for the triangle word I believe & I like it so use it a bit now
I should have also pointed out that basically all of those 338 pills will be fine ( I really like the new 175 ) it was the 400 yrd used as a position to show hopefully how they work ?
Harperc
I may be misunderstanding your question so tell me how this sounds or another way I need to interpret
The velocity brackets “unsure where the close ones come together “
Is this where 2 different weight projectiles launched @ 2 vastly different MV end up @ our chosen range end up in the same bracket ?
This is where I like bojo34 range card he uses the most likely % of a animal getting shot @ over 200 yards & also a muzzle to max the card of jakesch also shows this well if we use what Riceman posted up is correct neither pill is a bad choice it’s to me i will take the heavy inside that bracket but I do need & do assess the whole range card
Or is it the closeness of the brackets of only 300 or so between them ?
This is across a variety of calibers & where on average a visual uptick in preformance noted
I suppose it’s like shooting your x caliber @ a deer ea 150 yrd mark to 900 the visual is apparent yet the one @ 900 just drops & throws the theory out the window yes it happens but not that often just think back where your best kills have been ( triangle again )
I’ll come back to the discussion of the triangle as it’s past midnight & sleep is needed but would gladly wake up to the discussion by others
Cheers
jamesmuhlbeier
Full Member
I love this place
spoonwasher
New Member
Love the topic here guys, lots to take in. This bang-flop ratio chart is going to be a real pia with all the different calibers and bullet weight choices and designs we have here. To simplify things, we need to make some standards on what makes one particular combination of speed, penatration, and rate of expansion to qualify into the bang-flop area of the chart. Maybe someone with more experience and calibers to choose from can help with this. First we need to take one known qualifier and send it thru some ballistics gel to see how it performs compared with a less qualified combination. Basically giving us a visual aid in determining what makes one combo bang-flop or just marginal. Also has anybody used a pressure transducer to monitor the shock wave on a ballistics gel test?
harperc
Global Moderator
Midnight and time zones likely an issue both sides of the equator.
I'm not seeing the 175 listed it should be a great bullet to exploit the bigger .338 potential. 150 might get close to the lofty 4000 fps.
I'm mostly trying to draw out your thoughts:
1) I like the brackets.
2) How much difference it takes to make a difference is what I'm trying to get at. For discussion I threw out 500 fps, ButterBean said 200 fps, you mention 300 fps.
3) In cartridges many consider "overkill" here such as the .338 RUM, or .375 perhaps the differences need to be at the upper end to see something improve.
4) I'm looking forward to the 55 grain HH in my 6mm Remington. It's used mostly inside 200 yards, on our smaller big game by youth. I've rarely been completely happy with performance. Dropping to almost half bullet weight, and adding 1000 fps is appealing.
5) Losing 50-60 grains in my .30-06 for velocity gain of 500 fps has appeal for many situations.
6) The 248 HH in the .375 H&H easily replaces the 350 grain Barnes with another 500 fps, and terminal performance at any range.
7) For the .300 RUM in the pipeline, I'm studying the lighter choices as well.
8) I like the looks of the 120 LH in 7.62X39 and .30-30 maybe 150-200 fps improvement over the 143 LH
In the discussion of the .338 RUM the 275 fps favoring the 213 HH at the muzzle really I can't see as a factor for our game here. At 600 yards (my limit) still favors the 213 HH. At sea level by 147 fps, at 8000' by 113 fps. Still not meaningful to me. The 260 HH no doubt still being a great killer of elk, and one I could use as well. Even at sea level, they're both above 1800 fps at 900 yards.
Anyway that's why I would "PREFER" the 213 HH .338 RUM.
Now donkeys/horses striped or not could be a different story P-)
farleg
Platinum Member
I’m all ears spoonwasher
pressure guages we are onto that although not in gel but please understand this is not going to happen overnight & we don’t even no if it’s going to work as some great thoughts just turn out to be a dud
yes it’s a Pia & a lot to take in but here’s what I like is the info on the forum from ea individual & together it becomes a great data base ( the best information we can get IMO ) & 1 I wish I had of taken notes on ea individual kill something like this
Caliber
projectile weight
impact velocity
animal
Then the result in 4 parts
penertration
wound channel if can it’s hard in field conditions
shot placement
& the distance travelled to tipping over
As this is what I have done on my own data
if we could get a section like share your hammer loads & people put this in here it would be extremely valuable & the brackets overtime would become a lot clearer
now this is not upto me & it’s also another step that some people just couldn’t be bothered others would gladly help as that’s what they like doing
& then you have the part of the trolls that put in bad info for their own preconceived ideas that’s the hard ones to deal with as it can get ugly on this caliber is better yep seen that around plenty of campfires & one I like to avoid
Just some food for thought on this side of the ditch
Cheers
jakesch
Senior Member
Now I really like this idea...you could have someone like harperc and/or gltaylor monitor it for non-useful information and delete non-relative / subjective post. Maybe add it to a spreadsheet with caliber, impact velocity, shot placement, animal, distance traveled after shot, other notes
I personally only have 2 hammer kills:
Bull Elk (~700 lb), .308, 181 HH at ~3000 fps, high shoulder, bang flop
Cow Elk (~400 lb), .308, 181 HH at ~2200 fps, far back lung shot, traveled 100 feet before she expired
Actually as I typed that I wonder if the higher velocity impact is able to disrupt the CNS with bullet impacts further from it? Like each bracket gives you CNS results whiles shooting further from it.
Now I want to figure out the physics behind it!!!!! Appears to be some form of hydrostatic shock.
*EDIT* Looking at studies that show that hydrostatic shock hits in the vitals can cause ruptured blood vessels in the brain cause the bang flop. Man this is fascinating...maybe one day I will be able to retire from my normal day job to study more!
jakesch
Senior Member
I want to add...bullet frontal area plays a significant part of this. Hammers allow us to take advantage of larger frontal diameters at extreme speeds while still providing exceptional penetration. A .338 at the same weight and speed of a .284 will produce more of a shock. That sounds like a fun test to take a video off!
I know I am not saying anything new here...more of writing it out for myself
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday Carl
“ trying to draw out your thoughts “
Man I have trouble doing that myself lol
Serious now
Really I’ve found depending on caliber & animal
Eg go to the big bores on buff you move above the 2100 to just the 2200 & it’s noticeable & on the 2400 very noticeable then you get into the energy guys & while I’ll agree on that with old school soft nose the bar has moved considerably & to monos the first ones that really changed this that I say were raptors although I fiddled with a lot of brands previously these were a game changer as you could really start pushing velocity on these guys & now move to hammers & the bar is set higher again & the 50 cal I can’t wait
Move that to 224 on goats ( our feral not your lope ) & it takes considerably more to see a difference & 500/600 brackets is a way better indicator of performance to be expected visually
It’s so hard to put a blanket over so many animals & calibers & those brackets are pretty close I think to a overall perspective across the board definitely not a this will do that in this caliber
Overall it’s been pretty good @ showing move to the next bracket & we see animals time to tipping over reduced ea step up the line , your thoughts & others ?
On the 338 that 213 on those sums I wouldn’t have a problem but the new 175 ( when Steve releases it is going to be the new one in that rum to your 600 & in )
I think Yes those donkeys & horses striped or not are a great leveller
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Don’t worry about writing it out for yourself as it helps us all & especially the new comers to hammers as this will help tremendously
spot on
those tests are cool & shows exactly what your saying
for where we are @ the moment it’s just getting people to have that mind shift from what we were bought up with & the next generation shooters are taking this in their stride as my sons don’t hesitate to go the lightweight hyper route where I’m still stuck back a bit yet but getting better
Exciting times ahead & just getting one bracket is a huge step & the first step is always the hardest but it’s also the safest
I love this place & you guys
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
I'm looking forward to it.
I really want to compare the results to the Accubond I think 3600 should be fairly easy to do.
In the cup and core type I quit using the 180 on game as it just destroyed them. Cleaning them was just too much, and I'm not one that usually cares much about such things. A very good varmint load though. The 225's and 250's are nowhere near as destructive.
The Hammer should be much more friendly to the meat.
korhil78
New Member
Good evening. I am the person that staged the pigs at 800 yards and shot them in the shoulder. It was pretty devastating even at approximately1880 FPS impact. It entered the shield on the boars shoulder and broke into the chest cavity. Petals leaving dime sized holes and the shank leaving a half dollar sized hole. There were also bone shards that went into the chest cavity. As I said on the LRH forum, I would have no issue shoulder shooting or behind the shoulder shooting an elk at 800 yards with my setup and the 7mm 169 Gr hammer hunters going 3125 FPS. I would not shoulder shoot an elk with a berger bullet at that distance for sure.
I am not a real big proponent of energy numbers. You get the bullet that will give you the best range at which 1800 FPS will be achieved and you will be good. Also, marginal stability is not your friend with long copper bullets. If I’m using long copper bullets, I’ll go above what the recommended twist rate is. Example: If my barrel is an 8 twist, I’ll use bullets that are recommended for 8.5 or higher. I have used copper bullets that call for an 8 twist and sometimes they are not stable enough or spinning enough to get good expansion.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Your gonna fit right in here, thanks for the information, I love this place
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Another welcome.
I agree with the above 100+%. Using more twist than the recommended minimum and getting much higher stability factor than 1.5 is amazing - even on whitetails.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday jakesch
howz the study going lol
Can you post up a reference to those study documents please
side note on brackets I was asked if I had to try & get to one of the brackets from a conventional position
( 30 cal 180 gr @ 2500 /2600 most likely impacts )
id try & get to the 2800/3200 bracket it just has the best bang for buck & in this case is real easy to get to as he’s a mid range shooter ( 400 in ) , the long range guys are going to find it harder I’d say but need to do sums as per normal
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday korhil78
come on Berger they will kill anything @ any range right
oh I forgot on big bones they are perfect lol
now the dark side of hammers
Simple they just work but where you have hit the nail on the head is the SF
I like the thought & a few of us use that method also
do you think that as the size of the animal increases & range the SF should be increased to a way higher level
this also ties in with working these brackets out as if you’ve got a really good SF vrs a marginal one you can have potentially a better result ( withi the same bracket) especially @ the longer ranges hence lower velocities impacts
if your keen to do some more tests along this line I’d be keen to help where I can
on bean I’m sure you no him well from lrh but on here we keep him very honest & his secret desire will eventually come out as his post above is to try & shift focus from the true picture he’s working up to
I can see a bow tie & creedmore in his YouTube videos one day
cheers
joe16
Platinum Member
X2 on the bow tie I think he would rather gargle rhinoceros toe nails than the other. Jm2cw
Joe
farleg
Platinum Member
I’ve never dismissed anything in my life joe
while there’s life there’s hope
maybe those 85 gr pills would sweeten the deal
cheers
richcotte
Platinum Member
WOW!!!
So much knowledge to absorb here.
As someone just getting back into hunting after roughly 25 years, the world has certainly changed. Add to that, the decision to move over to mono/non-toxic bullets and I’m on a very steep learning curve. Probably the hardest part is trying to balance the last 10 years of LR cup and core steel ringing and paper punching experience with how a copper bullet is going to act on flesh…
I LOVE THIS PLACE!!!!
korhil78
New Member
I dont think the stability factor is going to be determined by the size of the animal. I think once you get a favorable stability it is going to work on any animal that is acceptable for you to shoot with that bullet. Meaning, I wouldnt go shoot a hippo with my 169 Gr hammer hunter load. Once you start getting acceptable expansion, you are good. I used the 177 Gr hammer hunter on a pig once and it did kill the pig but it did not do as much damage as the 169 Gr hammer hunter that I am using now. The SF of the 169 is 2.03 and the 177 is 1.81. I really do believe that the bullet being so much longer with the monos, needs to have a higher SF than a cup and core bullet to perform and shoot better.
I do know for a fact that my 177 hammer hunter load that I had would shoot very inconsistent at 1000 yards but would shoot very well at 400. The 169 Gr hammer will shoot very well all the way out to 1000 yards. It’s not going that much faster than my 177 Gr load. Could it be the difference in SF? In my opinion, like it has been said before, 2+ SF is where it’s at for monos.
mbruce
Platinum Member
Jack Neary has a fantastic video on YouTube where he discusses a bullet hole's shape and characteristics to determine stability.
I believe it's in one of his "Jack's VV Reloading Class" series. There's 12 of those so you might just have to work through them to get to it.
He mentions in addition to the hole shape, the black ring (colored ring if you color your bullets) being consistent around the edge of the hole.
If the black ring isn't consistent then your bullet isn't optimally stabilized.
He discusses how a stabilized bullet will cut the paper instead of tear it in a ragged hole. Few other characteristics are discussed.
So if one only has access to a 100 yard range...one can use his tips to help identify if the bullet is optimally stabilized for longer ranges or for optimal terminal performance.
mevertsen
Junior Member
I ran a stability factor calculator for my load.
3006 152 HH. 2900 FPS. 6000 FT and 59 degrees. 10 twist.
Came to 2.6?
According to the Berger calculator, that is very good.
Does this seem right?
ButterBean
Platinum Member
ShoNuff
harperc
Global Moderator
Yes it does/is. I always plug in sea level, as if it work there it works higher. In this case it would be 2.09.
harperc
Global Moderator
I started those awhile back (minimally into it) but educational. I need to try again. I kind of got lost on load tuning for conditions, and barrel tuners.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday korhil78
thanks for the info
this maybe my interpretation & off the mark a little so please accept my apology no offence intended
overall I think we are pretty well on the same page but could I have your thoughts on the following ( or anyone else )
I agree on a animal wont determine the SF that’s started once ignition has commenced
what we’ve found & observed is even on the a SF of 2 or extremely close 1.983 (281hh )that the projectile in the last part of its journey showed a tendency to tumble & lessened the terminal damage for that part of the wound channel overall compared to the 2.4 (248hh ) of the lighter pill these are in 375 cal
30 cal the same animals the stability showed the same traights
When we moved to smaller animals we never saw a difference on wound channel as my thoughts the projectile was stable ( straight line ) & exited before it got to the unstable part of its journey
This is where I like gel as it’s showed that tendency to tumble /yaw /turn on the path of a projectile as it’s way easier to trace but animals are more fun & my gel media
where the difference was on the velocity impact that the animal showed a different reaction hence the velocity brackets
where i think potentially we need to watch SF more closely is on the bigger animals & your guys elk & especially the big bears as if we get a pill to tumble / yaw / turn
it can’t be relied to go straight line you & animal potentially are in a world of hurt especially as angle & length to get to vitals are increased
the other part we are working on is a SF of say 4 what does this do inside the animal ?? Is it a deeper straight & wider wound path
A few of us believe a real good possibility hence it maybe possible to get a 150 to penertrate like a 170 ?
first & foremost is a particular design is showing different traights of wound channels & one we should also pay attention to
please don’t take this as being a smart ar$e
We are just trying to put this puzzle together a little more to get the best possible outcome for hunter & animal
& welcome anyone to the party
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday mevertsen
ive found the Berger one to be on the high side compared to jbm I don’t no which is the better one ? As this SF working out is new to me so I may be doing something wrong
no altitude on jbm & on those numbers I got 2.127 which is great
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Thanks Carl I should have read your first
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
www.sensorsone.com/altitude-pressure-units-conversion/
korhil78
New Member
No offense taken. We are all learning here.
mbruce
Platinum Member
There's no question that increased twists rate decreases yaw. You still have pitch though...precession and nutation eventually works it way out.
But there's other elements to how a bullet flies:
Are the bullets perfectly balanced?
Is the chamber aligned with the axis of the barrel?
Are the barrel lands and grooves uniformed?
Is the bullet releasing from the case uniformly
Any of those above can cause bullet stability issues that a stability factor will not measure or correct.
Increased twists rate will decrease yaw, but it will increase the effects of the others listed above.
That test of using a huge stability factor would be hard to nail down because so many other variables will change
But I like the experimenting and conversation...the only way to get better is to try to make better.
Relentless pursuit of better
Severe over-stabilization is a neat topic because little experimenting has been done in this area. Mainly because cup and core bullets would shred apart and they have other balancing characteristics Hammer's don't have.
Here's a neat contraption rigged to show a balanced bullet:
joe16
Platinum Member
Fellas
Shot 2 pigs this evening, 6.5 06 85 grain zoomie, and impact vel of 3300 and 3200. Red pig was broadside at approximately 150 yards It never took another step true Bang flop shot was Center Mass the black pig at the shot quarter towards me and stopped it at about 120 out facing me giving me enough time to put another shell in my TC pro hunter he was shot facing me Bullet entering bottom jaw he flopped over switched a few times not a true bang flop. But he never took another step
Red pig was approximately 90 lb and black pig was approximately 70 lb if this helps in evaluating this bullet
No post-mortem was done other than noticing that the exit wound on the red pig was caliber size but like I said she did not move from a Center Mass body shot. I did not try to recover a bullet from the black pig it is simply impossible with my hands in this condition the pigs were drugged to the canal Edge and fed to the alligators.
Not sure what bracket they fall into but they checked all points of the triangle for these pigs, that's for sure
I hope this helps
Joe
ButterBean
Platinum Member
A bang flop with a center mass shot on a pig is unheard of, I love this place
bojo34
Full Member
farleg said:
Gday thought I better post some pics of the 30 cal 101 blackout @ hyper velocities & what happened
very interesting data IMO
this shot was impact around 4K
placement behind the shoulder broadside
View Attachment
through centre of lungs
on impact this pill exhibits more sideways bubble than length & it shows in the wounds I believe
on entry it took 3 ribs out split diaphragm View Attachmentmajorly
& slightly ruptured stomach & a lot of blood between hide , meat & hide partedView AttachmentView Attachment the first lung was around 3/4 gone
move to the second lung & the shank had slowed considerably ( no petals made it this far or any other wound damage in lung & still looked as it was pretty functional ) classic solid slow wound through the lung just under 1/2 inch hole ( that’s no other damage just the permanent wound channel from shank ) View Attachment
shank exited just busting one rib on way through & about calibre exit View Attachment
what can we learn from this ?
to me it goes perfectly with the mechanics needed & speaks volumes for the triangle
some food for thought anyway
cheers
Farleg,
Would you mind expanding your thoughts on mechanics that failed here? So you mention the triangle being Impact velocity, penetration, and shot placement. There's clearly some overlap between velocity and penetration. Impact Velocity and shot placement both checked off here so what do you think caused the relatively poor penetration? Do you think you found the limit on the lower end for light/fast in 30 cal with respect to weight? Or is your guess it was more likely bullet shape/length more than weight? I believe you've seen good penetration from the .284/101 at lower velocities from your 7-08 so probably not the weight alone? Or should a 101 gr pill only be driven at a certain max velocity irrespective of caliber because it just doesn't have enough weight to withstand the counter force from the hyper impact velocity?
Don't mean to be a pest but seems you all learned something important here I'm just having trouble keeping up as usual.
joe16
Platinum Member
Great question seems on wonder from Down Under might be sleeping off a few you got to holler at him.
"FAAARRRLLEEEGGGGG"
riceman
Global Moderator
Bojo, ill take a stab at it while your waiting for farleg.
The 101blk out bullet is a little different than your typical hh. Its designed for impact velocities well below 4k. The bullet never failed, we pushed it 2x past what it was designed for.
The 101 has a hp of 2mm and shank retention like a deadblow.
At 4k impact the bullet opens so quick causing farleg's bubble to radiate out vs out and forward.
If it had a 1.5mm hp and a shank retention like most hh 60/70% it would have been different.
If I don't get a chance tonight with my 7mm and 131, I'm still going to use the 101s in my 300WM.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
That’s 100% on the money
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday
Joe it’s a longways across that ditch so just heard it lol
Bean x2
Riceman thanks
Bojo great question we started down the road of this 101 cause someone didn’t have a rum yet wanted rum velocities so the seed was planted from this knuckle head ( Riceman ) & it’s been the best chance we have to show you guys what we mean in the mechanics so a big thanks goes to Riceman
The 101 definitely hasn’t failed & it’s more potent than the 180 in those particular animals ( yes it’s dropping them quicker than the heavies but the 124&137 reign supreme as they have the full mechanics covered on these animals 30 caliber)
Where it has been extremely valuable is how we need to look @ the mechanics so we can get the optimum killing projectile in our own chosen caliber on our chosen game
This is where it becomes hard to address as we have limited opportunities to compare projectile performance
Scenario 1
Eg the 180 & 101 on a deer full broadside shooter 2 tags for the year
180 bangflop
101 10 yrd run
On the face of it we would say the 180 is the better pill right ?
No absolutely not for me I’d take the 101 everyday & now we enter the world of the mechanics
Broadside penertration max 12 in chest cavity
The 180 exhibits a long narrower bubble that most of it is never achieved/ utilised as it’s out of the chest cavity of the animal compared to the 101 extremely wide yet short length bubble before it tapers & it will kill more emphatic as it just destroys more vitals
& or blood pressure spike
Where we need to look is same scenario except a last rib to front Farleg & I’ll take the 180 ea & every time as the bubble that the 180 posses will be more damaging than the 101 as the 101 just doesn’t lend itself to a longer bubble ( drop velocity & it will I’m sure all will work very efficiently as per Riceman post & tests are about to be carried out by my son over the weekend if the weathers kind to confirm our thoughts or if Riceman gets his act together & stops messing with the heavy 7 mm pills lol )
How can we address this from a position before we get into the field is pretty easy & we should address
But I’ll leave that for a separate post as I’ve got to go & do some work just hope what Riceman & I put up answers your questions if not fire away & your definitely not a pain it’s great to get the questions out there as we all learn & I like the part that makes us take stock
& ive rambled enough sorry
Cheers
bojo34
Full Member
Riceman=> Thanks for specs on the .308/101 didn't realize what it was. Clearly should have read product description before asking my question. Knowing it's construct goes a long way toward explaining the results.
Farleg=> thanks for correction didn't mean to imply the 101 failed poor choice of words on my part. But given you weren't recommending it after your on game results it clearly didn't live up to expectations so just trying to understand where it fell short vs alternatives. I now have a much clearer picture.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday sorry for the absence had to get onto some info & fishing takes awhile sometimes especially the old gut hooks but it’s nearly time to set the hook lol
Velocity bracket update
Been also doing some research in regards to the brackets & hammers as that grey area was bugging me
So after searching a lot from you guys here & some on LRH combine that with my data & a clearer picture has emerged on the hammers & brackets so a bit of shuffling has occurred
Once again this is not this caliber or pill is better than another ( pill design is showing traits also but another time please & more testing is going on till that side becomes more reliable of a indicator)
So here’s the updated version & as always as more info or designs become available these brackets may shift
1800-2100
2100-2400
2400-2750
2750-3200
3200 plus
Triangle must be supported to complement these brackets
I’ve got richotte data on a sheet & will do a few others to show the potential of where we can improve our killing efficiency & I’ll eat my words I was wrong on a few thoughts & thanks to rich for showing another path is also available
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday
im the dunce in the corner & here’s my spreadsheet that proves that I’m no good @ the tech stuff so out comes the pen & paper
hammerbullets.boards.net
some interesting data & I slipped the 7-08 119 AH for my own benefit & surprised where it fell
the 7-08 load 101HH was mine also all the rest including the 308 & 6.5 creedmore were sourced from the load data that GL has collected & put together then averaged out to that velocity used so I’d say a pretty close representation
the first lot of data in the 30 cal was from richotte ( thanks for spending the time to help out )
Once again ea person can take these as they find them & make sure that triangle is covered
so just do the inputs from the data sheets on a few scenarios like above & see if you can jump a bracket or 2 with your combo to get to a even better killing efficiency with hammers
note don’t think the frangible can be applied to these brackets with certainty as I’ve had major problems when you get 3 k plus as the triangle is compromised now & then & I don’t like failure
& if anyone wants to go below the 1800 impact with hammers as Steve advises make sure you test to confirm the pill preforms
Cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
You've been busy! I've been worried you got cow kicked or something.
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Thanks Farleg. Interesting data! My favorite pill in the 6.5 is the 85 grain. You just validated my on-game performance observations this year! Cool!
buckys
New Member
This is great.
I think that this boils down to - find the set of bullets with the highest velocity bracket for the expected range and then pick the heaviest bullet option from that group - am I over-simplifying?
A very common question about Hammers is which bullet option should I try first for a given cartridge.
To that end, has anyone tried to start compiling stats that effectively would give you a MV histogram or mean/median/stddev for cartridge vs. barrel length vs. Hammer bullet weight? I'm thinking that gltaylor's spreadsheet is the best we have here?
rngrfromthemtns
Full Member
I missed the beginning of this thread and got sucked into over lunch. Man this is some great info. I'm going to have to sit down with some of the existing data and run the numbers for my a few rifles that I haven't chosen bullets for yet. My 6.5 needmoor is tragically with a chosen bullet and it needs to shoot something.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday
how best to achieve an immediate, effective kill shot ? “ bangflop “ is the common term & most desirable result . No running, no tracking & no lost injured animals
immediate kills depend upon an adequate combination of three basic things
penertration , wound channel & shot placement. Here we are talking about a heart/lung shot , not involving the central nervous system ( CNS )
A dedicated group of individuals have been working on developing “ VELOCITY IMPACT BRACKETS “
this is not a newly thought up whizz bang theory. It is based of a lot of years & huge amount of kills . Some were impressive-some not so much over a lot of species from duiker to elephant with a lot in between
These are from my own eyes in the field ( I have not shot a elephant only observed )
The concept of velocity brackets is very simple. You have to have adequate penetration, your bullet must do extensive tissue damage , and there has to be sufficient energy/speed to allow the bullet to do it’s work . This is not solely about velocity. It is about IMPACT velocity & bullet performance @ your desired range
Pick the range @ which you are most likely to make your shot . Adjust your projectile weight . Calculate your impact velocity @ that range a simple example would be if your target range is 250 yard a 30cal 180 pill impact of 2600 drop to a 124 & you get 3000
You will now find you are in a very efficient killing bracket @ that distance with your rifle if you have satisfied all 3 components of the efficienct killing triangle
this is the foundation of the concept of velocity brackets
More details to come in following posts
cheers
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Your the Man
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Absolutely correct!
This is excellent guidance and well founded.
farleg
Platinum Member
VELOCITY BRACKETS
UPDATED FROM ORIGINAL
1800-2100
2100-2400
2400-2750
2750-3200
3200 PLUS
Move to more recent times ( hammer time) & ive been blessed to have like-minded individuals with similar observations & results. We have shared notes / experiences & thoughts to come up with the following brackets that are showing patterns in efficiency in how quickly an animal goes down from bang flops to a mile or more of trailing !!
Now please don’t think these are only for speed demons just look @ the Grendel with lighter pills than the norm , as it’s awesome . The key is to get your rifle ( regardless of calibre ) to its highest potential @ the yardage you intend to shoot too
IMPACT BRACKETS ( FPS )( these below were original brackets but left to show how we adjusted as more info came forward )
1800-2100 as per hammers lowest impact recommendation
2100-2400
2400-2700
2700-3000 these 2 cross over quite often
3000-3500 so maybe a 2800-3200 new bracket ( ?) due to hammers
3500-3700
3700 plus
I’ve had buff run from 375&458
Get the velocity up & that run diminishes with ea step up in velocity bracket ( if mechanics met once again) on average
Please don’t take that as I’ve been using a 45-70 400gr pill & I’ll go to a 223 50 gr pill & take elk .
If you have been using x caliber stay with it & increase velocity. You will see a noticeable difference on average AS LONG AS THE MECHANICS ARE FULLY MET AS THE #1 PRIORITY first & foremost. A 220 swift may provide incredible velocity but the other 2 equally important legs of the efficiency triangle will not be supported
Eg the 101 blackout & 180hh that butterbean is going to post on video the 101 will be no good on elk , it will kill but does not meet the requirements for good mechanics ( ioo)
The easiest way to evaluate this IMO is the way bojo34 does & his method is so simple & id like him to way in & show us his tables & what he does if he doesn’t mind
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday joe
definatly no one bullet / calibre combo across a range of animals
but now we enter your world & I do say your minion is close to it (heads up people this is the 101 blackout in his rum )
Once bean posts the video a little more will become visual of what we are on about
but I’m also very interested in that 120 lever but for now I’ll get a deer to stand broadside instead of a angle to show what I call a true bangflop & velocity brackets are the best way to achieve this
yes the anal taswegian is hard to please
cheers
joe16
Platinum Member
The term "Splat Factor" seems to have been replaced by velocity brackets and such
I came here for "Splat Factor"!!! Please tell me this term is still alive and well.This is too awesome
Joe
bojo34
Full Member
Hey Farleg,
Appreciate the mention. Here's a sample of the simple table I make to compare impact velocities when considering different pills for a given cartridge:
152HH 151AH 137HH
MV 3585 3564 3700
100 3344 3295 3407
200 3109 3031 3121
300 2880 2778 2845
400 2660 2536 2582
500 2450 2307 2333
In this particular case I was looking for highest impact velocities for an elk load in my 300WM and my most common hunting range is in the 300-400 yard range which is why those ranges are highlighted. Full details in the thread "300WM...152HH, 151AH, 137HH surprising results." Very simple to build this template on an excel spreadsheet. I start with a sample pack for the pills I want to consider, establish MV for each pill, drop the MV/listed BC/0 range/any environmental adjustments, etc (think most of you know the drill) into a ballistic calculator and then input the data to the excel spreadsheet. May sound like a lot of work but really pretty simple. Also may seem unnecessary but it can lead to some surprising results like above.....I wasn't expecting the 152HH would hang in there with the other two listed above. Could be unique to my rig/available powders but glad I spent the time and really boosted my confidence in the result as I head out for elk this rifle season. Once the template is built easy to adjust for different cartridges/preferred ranges, etc.
bojo34
Full Member
Cheers
Interesting stuff Farleg thanks for this! I assume that you chose the breakpoints for these brackets because you saw an uptick in terminal performance at or around each of these levels? So here's my initial question with respect to putting these brackets to use: would you suggest that it's only worth going lighter/faster if you can get into the next bracket? Here's a specific example.....let's say I've worked up a load for my old 7x57 with the 120HH and given my likely hunting range know my impact velocity would be in the 2400-2600 range. By dropping to the 101HH I can get those likely impact velocities up to 2500-2700. Are you suggesting that's not really worth it because I will still be in the 2400-2700 bracket and won't likely see an uptick in terminal performance?
Hope that makes sense. This is a really intriguing thought process don't mean to try to pin you down as I'm sure there is a large "soft science" component to this given the data is largely observational but just trying to figure out how to put this info to it's best use. Thanks again for all you do!
mbruce
Platinum Member
bojo34 - I’m just chiming in for conversation.
I wonder if it’s as simple as if the % decrease in weight is larger than the % increase in speed then maybe it’s a not an effective move?
I haven’t ran the numbers…the weight decrease % may always be larger than the velocity increase % ?
in your example the 101 is a 16% decrease in weight ( (120-101)/120) and the velocity increase is 4%. ((2500-2600)/2500)
bojo34
Full Member
mbruce=> good thought but I suspect it's not that simple. Evidence from all of Farleg's great work seems to be mounting in the direction that velocity is to be desired above all else and some seem to be starting to argue to the exclusion of all else. Not to re-hash the energy debate but recall that in that equation mass gets halved and velocity gets squared. Again, an imperfect/irrelevant measure of lethality for sure, but if it's at least directionally correct with respect to measuring potential, then halving the percentage decrease in weight from 16% to 8% and squaring the percentage increase in velocity from 4% to 16% would say the swap in my example might be worth it. Again, not arguing energy is relevant here just using the formula as an example of what can happen when you apply an exponential emphasis on velocity over other factors. Small increases in velocity can overwhelm decreases in other factors.
Don't mean to get too bogged down in minutiae here these velocity brackets seem intriguing and potentially really helpful to those of us without ultra mags getting 3700+.
harperc
Global Moderator
You really need one LOL! Too much fun.
Good tables.
mbruce
Platinum Member
ha, minutia is mostly what we obsess and debate over.
I think the question is relevant though....At what point is the speed increase meaningful
harperc
Global Moderator
I'll play.
If i don't seen 500 fps difference I'll go with the more traditional weights. In the table listed I see no range at which I wouldn't use the 152HH.
Again kind of the triangle of needs, game size, and range.
The 124 or 101 might have select use, but not listed.
harperc
Global Moderator
Comparisons may not be as useful within a particular cartridge. One may need to compare a 124 from the 300 RUM's to the 152 in a .300 Winchester etc.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Speed will always be the biggest multiplier
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday guys
First off bojo34 thanks for that perfect
Initial question lol you have others I guess lol
I maybe a little vague as my body is not what it use to be & the toothpicks are in to help out a little also
I think you’ve already got your answer bojo as test packs will sort the up in the air part lol but you are correct ive seen these brackets across multiple species that a step up is observed some animals do defy this but it’s your assumption that holds true in real life as in my 7-08
& the 3 pills 101/119&120 all fall inside a bracket & only end up 75 FPS quickest to slowest & in this case I just went the heavier but still haven’t worked out which one lol
I’ll come back when I have a clearer head if that doesn’t answer your initial question ?
Sorry for the being absent was out splatting a few more deer with my son & fdoing some maintenance on our hunting property
Got some really good data & the triangle was left lacking & it showed
Gave the 101 a good run 2 deer & no bangflop & thought the mojo was gone or they just got bullet proof
so out came the 124 bangflop
Outcome the 137 bangflop
Back to 101 run
My minds made up & terminally it’s easy to see why & I’ll post pics once I get all of them from my sons phone as this muppet left his back @ camp
Outcome 135 tinkered lever in 375 rum
No worries about a bangflop here these are a hand grenade yet not as savage on meat as the 101 actually they may have lost a cup on one deer & other was spine so that was more & probably 3 to 4 cups totally acceptable IMO
I’ll come back after some zzz & see if I can add my 2 cents to that energy part
Yes I don’t like energy & it’s better if I answer this with a clear head or the blue star boys will have my guts for garters
( not having a go @ you mbruce just where I believe energy should be )
Cheers to all
joe16
Platinum Member
Farleg
Wow bum me out on the 101s, but that is exactly why what you're doing is so important thank you for doing all the fun work
that's why when I joined this place I thought it was so valuable for Steve and Brian to have such a large database available Top Notch Farleg. Not to belittle anybody else's research but this guy shoots so much sh-t it's hard to dismiss the value of it. My new 300 rum was sent off to the gunsmith in preparation for the 101s now it looks like it's in preparation for the 120s doesn't matter to me I'm just looking for a quick and efficient harvest!!The 101s will be used just to blast stuff now, not a problem
And this place is too awesome
Joe
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Seems we are narrowing the field.
Once again, the aspect of needed shank to total bullet weight is coming into the equation. The 101 30 cal is like a flying ash tray. Very little retained shank to help the bullet carry through and penetrate. Remember, the 101 was developed for the 300 Blackout, at MUCH lower velocity, to ensure performance at much lower energy levels.
Seems we are settling on a need for around 50-60% shank length for best overall performance in all aspects. Petal weights are also part of the ideal equation
gltaylor
Global Moderator
when Butterbean posts Farlegs results on the 101s, the above will be very graphically and clearly demonstrated.
mbruce
Platinum Member
farleg - my response isn't energy related, that's not what this thread is about.
I like the velocity brackets...Speed kills, there's no denying that.
Just curious more than anything how much speed increase does it take to make a difference in terminal ballistics.
Real-world example...I'm using the 120g for my 7-08....is it worth dropping down to the 100gr for the velocity increase.
In my 6 Creedmoor that would be going from the 88gr to the new 55gr or the 70gr.
bojo34
Full Member
Don't mean to confuse things further and perhaps I should wait for Farleg's response but maybe by pointing out my impression here his answer will be a skosh more complete?
I think we're tossing apples and oranges around here. My impression was that Farleg's comments regarding shortfalls with the 101 were in reference to the .284 101 out of his 7mm-08 vs the .284 119ah and 120HH.
I think Joe and gltaylor are talking about the .308 101 at hyper velocities??
Those are two very different equations and really speak to what''s on some (many) of our minds......is what some of you are observing with the really lightweight pills out of the ultrmags at hyper vleocity levels applicable to the more pdestrian calibers most of us have? That's where the brackets come in maybe?
Farleg please clarify I might be a bit lost here.
joe16
Platinum Member
It seems as if our Wonder from Down Under did combined the two when he posted using the 101 124 and the 137 those are 30 caliber numbers sorry fellows if gl and I Robbed your thread my apologies.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
The 101 in question is the 30 cal Blackout
bojo34
Full Member
Got it, thanks BB....my misreading of Farleg's post.
joe16
Platinum Member
I didn't think gl and I were sitting out in left field Picking Daisies but it wouldn't be the first time
for me that is I can't speak for g lmevertsen
Junior Member
From what I am understanding I some of theses tests, is there needs to be a control.
Even reading some of farlegs posts I am getting confused on what cartridge he is using, etc, which for me makes it a bit difficult to follow.
I have a certain load for my 30-06 which is quite predictable, boring actually in how well it works.
I have dropped deer and antelope in their tracks with less than perfect shots. I have also hit an antelope in the lungs, and it still ran 200 yards despite having chunks hanging out the exit side.
For me to understand the best, I would have to see different weight bullets- multiple kills with each, from. The same cartridge to fully understand which is the best for that application.
Unfortunately it's not like ballistics gelatin which we can measure density on. Some animals are just plain tougher than others and sometimes there is just that fluke which happens to work perfectly.
Edit to add....
I have load worked up for that 30-06 with the 152 HH which I will use this year. Will see how it works out my desert bighorn. 2900 fps out of a 22 inch barrel -not screaming, but it should get me 1800 fps to about 600 yards, which is plenty far for me.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday mbruce
my bad sorry I was struggling to stay awake & the clear thoughts evaded me & a bit clearer now I think ( as they do sometimes when I’ve had enough sleep )
I’ll answer mevertsen & bojo directly to not muddy the waters hopefully
your 7-08 will depend on what you can achieve velocity wise & range to shoot @
Mine is mainly a kids rifle so I didn’t push& are most common range 150 yrd (50to 200 yrd 99% of shots )
the velocity of these
101@3370
119@3275
131@3010
go to the brackets & the way bojo does up
the 101@ 119 are realistic neck & neck & I’ll go the heavy ea time yet the 131falls short
here’s where they fell @150 @300 ft elevation
101 2918
119 2860
131 2676
even noting that @ 200 the first 2 stay in the 2700+ bracket
to me no real difference in the velocity bracket it’s where they will fall that’s the key as long as the 3 pillars of the triangle are met
a simple way to evaluate this deserves a seperate post as it’s simple but very deserving of its own part
now your 6 cm I’d do the same & see where the velocities fall & I’ll post up some info to mevertsen to hopefully clear the air & not duplicate & confuse to much
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday bojo
the brackets are the important part regardless of caliber
it’s the impact velocity where our combo falls that’s the important part & which bracket
I think I’ve answered your question in the previous post to mbruce ? If not let me no
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday mevertsen
very valid points & I take notice of what your saying 100% & agree 100%
sorry for confusion just pull me up if I’m not clear as this is a extremely important equation we all should do
moving on
I really don’t like putting numbers out there as I don’t like the part of but look @ me syndrome
yet in this case it does need a form of clarity
ive slowed down a lot these days
last year on my property we shot well in excess of 100 fallow deer
the trips to buff country we shot well in excess of 100 animals
my mates no the true numbers & I would rather that
this season ( I have crop protection permits) from now to our actual season ( March ) we should take in excess of a 100 more fallow
over my life culling has been a big part over a lot of species even a second job for a lot of years
if you want numbers I can’t give total sorry as 2 many but with records that were kept over 100,000 in 10 years were achieved over a wide variety of animals in Aussie & Africa
now this still doesn’t make me a guru as I’ve got mates still doing this & a couple achieve huge numbers in ea day out ( chopper culling) these are the guys I listen to along with my mate in buff country& African mates
Now these brackets are not in a controlled situation granted but I have observed differences on the average & just ask the speedemon club on video before I even got to the animal with the first 30 cal 101 I was questioning the effectiveness due to a animal’s reaction yet it took 3 to 4 steps
this is not the 3 to 4 steps it’s their reaction that tells us how a projectile preforms & im confident in my abilities to access how a projectile preforms on a very limited number of shots but I do like numbers of animals min 10 & really like 20 as that will tell us true patterns
but 30 cal 101 I’m done in the rum but a 308 I’m going to try
as for calibers yes 30 cal is my most commonly used & from 7.62x39 to 30-378 mainly 300 rum these days
also used a wide variety of other calibers but the 6.5 is the one I really lack the knowledge in
yes animals vary in toughness & even within species but in my eyes it’s the patterns I just can’t look past
your 30-06 & 152 will be a fine choice I’m sure & do you proud & as a multiple species pill it will be hard to beat as it does cover the triangle for the majority of animals
hope that answers your queries & we also have a thought on how to evaluate on a test media that isn’t expensive like gel that everyone can do
more to come on this as I’ve rambled enough & it’s not about me it’s getting the best for a individual that we no of & until someone shows us a better way this is it
mevertsen
Junior Member
Man that is still a lot to take in.
This is my first foray into mono bullets, so there is still a lot for me to learn and understand.
Tha ks for the explanation.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
joe16
Platinum Member
Nice job Butterbean
Steve Davis
Administrator
I think there is some give and take here for sure. If I can run a .308 181g Hammer Hunter at 3400 fps in a rum I think it will be much more effective than a 124g Hammer Hunter from a 30-06 at the same vel. So there is most definitely a projectile size matters in the equation. More shed weight equals more shock. Larger retained shank carries more vel all the way through the animal. Petal weight carries more retained vel through the animal. Larger petals make bigger wound channels.
I used a very easy to wrap your head around example on purpose. It becomes more subtle with many of the, "Which bullet should I use scenarios." Kinda like the discussion we had the other day about bullet choice for a 300 wsm with range to 500y. I lean to the 166g Hammer Hunter at 3200 fps vs the lighter bullets running several fps faster. This preference for me is from seeing these bullets perform from close to long range fired from a 30-06, at nothing close to high vel, with stellar results. We have seen enough bang flops with lung shots from mid weight bullets, for caliber, impacting from low to high 2000's fps to know they work extremely well. There is most definitely something to the amount of nose that is shedding and the shock that it creates. Let alone the greater wound channel form larger shed petals.
We will be playing with the light super high vel bullets this year some more. In the past we shot a bunch of white tail deer with the 124g Hammer Hunter from a 30-06ai at 3500 fps at 300y and in. It was simply devastating. Have we had devastating results from 1000 fps slower impacts with larger for caliber bullets? Yes most definitely. Brings to mind a 500y muley doe with a 92g Hammer Hunter from our 25x47 Lapua. Frontal shot recovered in the hind quarter. Never even twiched. Impact vel about 2200 fps. A one off, but not expected from the kind of shot.
farleg
Platinum Member
Great stuff bean
Ok people this is not just @ those speeds as it went through the velocity brackets & energy numbers all the way to 1860 velocity
The same pattern exists all the way down the line & same velocity different pill exhibits the same visual
Yes not recommending the 101 & you’ll see why when the pics are put up of the vitals & that pills characteristic @ hyper velocities move them to the velocity they were intended for & I do believe they will preform better than the hyper
There is a line that we need to follow & that’s the 3 legs of the triangle
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday mevertsen
take your time as monos are a huge step & undoubtedly my opinion the hammers are the best I’ve seen ( all time not just monos) so you’ve started with the best & if you start @ the heavier side & baby steps never hurt anyone
ultimatly we are just trying to put forward our position on the most effective killing system we have seen & I don’t won’t to jinx gltaylor with these lightweights but his results from many kills in the heavier pills & now a handful in the lightweights are chalk & cheese & he can explain that in his eyes
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday Steve I’m definitely not saying hammers are not working well @ the low to high 2000’s far from it it’ & I’ll back your projectiles over any other brand
why ? is simple to see people get the best possible results when they squeeze off on their chosen quarry & I think I’ve put that across pretty well & will continue to push for the better of animal & individual & I’ll also push you & Brian to make the holy grail of pills
yes some give & take for sure & im not itching for a brawl we are just trying to help the general person get a more efficient kill
if some one can come up with a better way I’m all ears & would gladly use but I’m buggered if I’ve seen one from TKO to KPS they all are left lacking when across the board of calibres are used & favours energy which is overrated IMO
With all due respect move to your big dog & the 214&227 yet you explained perfectly why you’ve chosen the lighter & even done the sums on the 124 & I can see why you have gone that route
move that to the design of your individual pills & now where entering into a new chapter & one a few of us have been paying real close attention to as the next step
Is that 166 a better option
It’s a pill that shows a lot of promise due to design the best leveller I’ve seen are horses & donkeys you kill these guys bangflop 50% & your in uncharted territory ( only one pill I’ve ever used do higher ) & ive shot many many thousands of these
now I no you won’t shoot a horse but the donkeys are going to be a eye opener in that big dog & can’t wait
& Im betting neither will bangflop 50% with non cns shots yes velocity alone is not it nor will size
no right nor wrong & everyone has a different perspective & needs
it’s in their own range that we are trying to show potentially a little better way % wise of animal going down quicker within their own rifle & definitely not saying go buy a bigger gun
I think we are dancing around the same maypole a balance is needed & a lot of results with hammers are bangflop across a lot of those brackets no doubting that yet bambi to buff the greater % of bangflop or a lesser run distance are from the higher velocities as long as the other legs are met on the triangle
this is the easiest way we’ve seen to get a increase in performance & the fur calculator to me doesn’t lie
is it the 100% accurate true across the board of everything its going to do theory @ that velocity
NO definitely not but it’s the best I’ve seen
& until someone comes up with a formula this is what I use
no offence intended
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday thought I better post some pics of the 30 cal 101 blackout @ hyper velocities & what happened
very interesting data IMO
this shot was impact around 4K
placement behind the shoulder broadside
through centre of lungs
on impact this pill exhibits more sideways bubble than length & it shows in the wounds I believe
on entry it took 3 ribs out split diaphragm
majorly & slightly ruptured stomach & a lot of blood between hide , meat & hide parted
the first lung was around 3/4 gone
move to the second lung & the shank had slowed considerably ( no petals made it this far or any other wound damage in lung & still looked as it was pretty functional ) classic solid slow wound through the lung just under 1/2 inch hole ( that’s no other damage just the
permanent wound channel from shank )
shank exited just busting one rib on way through & about calibre exit
Steve Davis
Administrator
Sep 28, 2021 at 8:40am via mobile riceman, carsyn22, and 3 more like thisQuoteEditlikePost OptionsPost by Steve Davis on Sep 28, 2021 at 8:40am
farleg Avatar
Sep 28, 2021 at 12:00am farleg said:
Steve Davis Avatar
Sep 27, 2021 at 8:11pm Steve Davis said:
I think there is some give and take here for sure. If I can run a .308 181g Hammer Hunter at 3400 fps in a rum I think it will be much more effective than a 124g Hammer Hunter from a 30-06 at the same vel. So there is most definitely a projectile size matters in the equation. More shed weight equals more shock. Larger retained shank carries more vel all the way through the animal. Petal weight carries more retained vel through the animal. Larger petals make bigger wound channels.
I used a very easy to wrap your head around example on purpose. It becomes more subtle with many of the, "Which bullet should I use scenarios." Kinda like the discussion we had the other day about bullet choice for a 300 wsm with range to 500y. I lean to the 166g Hammer Hunter at 3200 fps vs the lighter bullets running several fps faster. This preference for me is from seeing these bullets perform from close to long range fired from a 30-06, at nothing close to high vel, with stellar results. We have seen enough bang flops with lung shots from mid weight bullets, for caliber, impacting from low to high 2000's fps to know they work extremely well. There is most definitely something to the amount of nose that is shedding and the shock that it creates. Let alone the greater wound channel form larger shed petals.
We will be playing with the light super high vel bullets this year some more. In the past we shot a bunch of white tail deer with the 124g Hammer Hunter from a 30-06ai at 3500 fps at 300y and in. It was simply devastating. Have we had devastating results from 1000 fps slower impacts with larger for caliber bullets? Yes most definitely. Brings to mind a 500y muley doe with a 92g Hammer Hunter from our 25x47 Lapua. Frontal shot recovered in the hind quarter. Never even twiched. Impact vel about 2200 fps. A one off, but not expected from the kind of shot.
Gday Steve I’m definitely not saying hammers are not working well @ the low to high 2000’s far from it it’ & I’ll back your projectiles over any other brand
why ? is simple to see people get the best possible results when they squeeze off on their chosen quarry & I think I’ve put that across pretty well & will continue to push for the better of animal & individual & I’ll also push you & Brian to make the holy grail of pills
yes some give & take for sure & im not itching for a brawl we are just trying to help the general person get a more efficient kill
if some one can come up with a better way I’m all ears & would gladly use but I’m buggered if I’ve seen one from TKO to KPS they all are left lacking when across the board of calibres are used & favours energy which is overrated IMO
With all due respect move to your big dog & the 214&227 yet you explained perfectly why you’ve chosen the lighter & even done the sums on the 124 & I can see why you have gone that route
move that to the design of your individual pills & now where entering into a new chapter & one a few of us have been paying real close attention to as the next step
Is that 166 a better option
It’s a pill that shows a lot of promise due to design the best leveller I’ve seen are horses & donkeys you kill these guys bangflop 50% & your in uncharted territory ( only one pill I’ve ever used do higher ) & ive shot many many thousands of these
now I no you won’t shoot a horse but the donkeys are going to be a eye opener in that big dog & can’t wait
& Im betting neither will bangflop 50% with non cns shots yes velocity alone is not it nor will size
no right nor wrong & everyone has a different perspective & needs
it’s in their own range that we are trying to show potentially a little better way % wise of animal going down quicker within their own rifle & definitely not saying go buy a bigger gun
I think we are dancing around the same maypole a balance is needed & a lot of results with hammers are bangflop across a lot of those brackets no doubting that yet bambi to buff the greater % of bangflop or a lesser run distance are from the higher velocities as long as the other legs are met on the triangle
this is the easiest way we’ve seen to get a increase in performance & the fur calculator to me doesn’t lie
is it the 100% accurate true across the board of everything its going to do theory @ that velocity
NO definitely not but it’s the best I’ve seen
& until someone comes up with a formula this is what I use
no offence intended
cheers
No offense taken and none meant.
Don't get me wrong, there is most definitely a correlation of vel to quick kills. Speed most definitely kills!
I just don't want folks thinking they need high vel to get great results from Hammers. There is a copper bullet reputation out there that we deal with daily. Many people think that extra vel is needed to get a copper bullet to work properly. Hammers don't fall in that category. They work very well at high or low velocity. Much diff than what many hunters have experienced with other mono bullets.
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Absolutely correct.
Good morning Steve. I see my latest batches of bullets are on the way. Thanks!
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I agree and there is absolutely no doubt they work at standard velocity’s and you don’t have to be in the hyper velocities to take advantage of this, it just doesn’t take much effort to move into the next higher bracket, 200 FPS can make a world of difference
farleg
Platinum Member
Thanks for the clarification Steve all cool this side of the ditch
I hope that we are not coming across as you need more speed to make hammers work ? As far from that
our philosophy is simple hammers work very well through all of the velocity brackets
where we are is what we’ve witnessed & learnt along this journey & just want people to have a even better experience
the big one for the majority of people is trying to put the puzzle together ( I’m not saying anyone’s dumb it’s a hard thing to get ones head around until the penny drops it took me ages & im dumb )
this puzzle we believe is the easiest system for people to use in our opinions
eg you have a bloke who has x rifle with a x twist
normally we look @ the highest weight bullet that twist will run & work up a load that on paper shoots lights out yet terminal the chance of the true twist being out is ever so real hence terminal performance is compromised or even if twist is correct correct still has a chance of less than ideal penertration on the bigger animals & I think why some results are what they are when if we look @ it this way of velocity brackets only occasionally the heavy will ever be used so TSF will not be compromised
& the added bonus of the speed hence brackets that are visual just not scientific
yes we don’t even have to worry about SF as really for a lot of us SF is a foreign entity ( I’ve got my head around it these days ) just look @ how many people the members advise against a certain weight due to twist & that twist is usually unmeasured
taking into account the mechanics of the triangle is paramount
don’t worry we will put that carrot on the stick for you to nibble a little more
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
Trying to keep up!
1) Hammers will expand (perform) at low velocities. A pretty good thread on LRH currently showing that. Which is where some of the doubt regarding mono's (Hammer's) creeps in.
2) More velocity in any cartridge/bullet combo is a good thing. It's why some of us have bigger cartridges.
3) In the "standard" cartridges because of the effectiveness of Hammer's we can drop weight, increase velocity, optimize twist, and generally be more effective.
4) Most of us won't utilize the lower velocity threshold, and the high velocity capabilities are something to be exploited.
5) There isn't a replacement for displacement. A big bullet going very fast still trumps a little bullet going fast. It could be unnecessary, but there it is. I would like a 150 grain .338 for my RUM, just to see how it compares with the 124 grain 6.5 in the field. The cup and core type bullets on antelope are much more destructive. Too much more actually.
6) ButterBean you're getting good with the video stuff
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday Carl
spot on with the exception of number 2 as it just needs a little tweaking & my anal side
I would think the following 2 words in capitals were missing
“ more velocity in any cartridge/ bullet combo INVOLVING HAMMERS is a good thing . It’s why some of us have bigger cartridges “
cause I think it’s evident on what happens to the cup & core guys
if it’s that test on pigs @ 1800 impacts ?
yes there’s everyone answer & the guys that are trying to debunk hammers effectiveness are usually twist telated imo hence stability factor of 1.5 should be for the paper punches
others mean no harm to hammers & are innocent parties of the old SF factor rule
you will get away with it on deer or like most of the time but move to elk size it’s showing up as a slower opening of the projectile & sometimes retained petals
bears or buff definitely don’t use that old rule
The triangle is the key ( I’ve pinched this from GL but it’s so true )
my 2 cents
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
I laughed at this as I spent time considering using Hammer's in the sentence. More time than it would have taken to just type it. I thought I was getting redundant like an infomercial so I didn't. Then jumped to the assumption everyone would get it, there is that assumption thing.
Yes they shot the staged pigs at 800 yards.
farleg
Platinum Member
On both Don't feel bad on assumptions just join the clan i say
Its all cool i need reminding now & then also as the new comers don't get what we are on about all the time so it's pull us up people if your unsure as no dumb questions
Clarity is always good
Yes saw that one , nice info & reassurance once again for the people in those lower spectrum velocities
Cheers
cbjr
Senior Member
Not to derail, but is this hog test a video or a thread somewhere and where do I find it? I'd like to see/read it. Thanks!
harperc
Global Moderator
www.longrangehunting.com/threads/longrangish-hammer-bullet-shots.280597/?utm_source=threadloom&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ed1369&utm_content=iss972#post-2294400
jakesch
Senior Member
I think I understand what you guys are saying but I want to verify. So for this fall I am planning on taking my 338 RUM on my elk hunt and I have the two options shown below. What do you do if both bullets are within the same bracket at your given range? Do you go heavier or faster?
For example, at 400y Sea Level would you choose the 213 gr HH going 2614 fps or the 260 gr HH going 2490 fps even though they are in the same velocity bracket (2400 to 2700)? Then at altitude, you go with the 213's because it is in the next bracket (2806fps vs 2642fps)?
Sealevel 8000 feet
213 260 213 2600 3340 3065 3340 3065
50 3245 2990 3271 3010
100 3152 2916 3203 2956
150 3059 2828 3135 2903
200 2968 2756 3068 2850
250 2877 2684 3002 2797
300 2788 2614 2936 2745
350 2701 2545 2870 2693
400 2614 2490 2806 2642
450 2530 2409 2742 2591
500 2447 2343 2679 2541
550 2365 2278 2616 2491
600 2285 2214 2555 2442
650 2207 2151 2494 2394
700 2130 2089 2434 2346
750 2055 2028 2375 2298
800 1981 1968 2317 2252
850 1909 1909 2259 2205
900 1838 1850 2203 2160
950 1768 1793 2147 2114
1000 1699 1736 2092 2070
harperc
Global Moderator
The great thin about the .338 RUM is there aren't really any bad choices for ungulates at any range.
I'd go with the 213's.
I like terminal velocity at 3000 fps or close. It doesn't mean either of these don't do it farther.
I'm still shooting up a bunch of ammo, and haven't got to the box of 213's on the bench. May have to shoot out my existing barrel first.
I have shot the Accubonds from 180-250, and can say on the classic broadsides the 3500 fps of the 180's are incredibly more devastating than the 250's. I've made "head" shots to 800 yards on the IPSC type targets, rock chucks to 500 in extreme wind (great spotter), and the only real miss was not holding hair on a distant coyote.
Recoil will be lighter with the 213's. The Hammer won't have the penetration issues that show up time to time with the light Accubond.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday jakesch
those figures set out perfectly what to do if we work with the 400 as a exercise & shows perfectly how these brackets work
both pills @400 feet fall in the same bracket @400 yards so
I’d go 260 & the heavier is the best option if they both fall in the one bracket ( triangle needs to be looked @ if met & easy test for that as Steve’s mentioned in other threads & we can put that up again if people are unsure or better still members who post their experience with that pill on what animal with the shot angle & if penertration was achieved or where shank stopped is the true indication velocity/twist also please)
move to 8000 feet @400 yards
& the 213 is it
these brackets can be even refined a fair bit yet I think
( yes I’m never happy) but if we use these as a general rule & the triangle your in great territory cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
The never happy bit applies to a lot of us nit pickers.
However! When it comes to the .338 RUM like I said it's hard to pick a bad Hammer bullet from the line up for elk. There are 4 between these 2 I would have complete confidence in.
Back to the 2 choices they are so close in terminal velocity, I may have missed it, but how much velocity do you think makes a difference where there is so much overlap.
I can't imagine a situation the 213 would not serve me well for elk in the .338 RUM. I have hunted them from below sea level, to a few thousand feet. I haven't killed one with a Hammer, but I can't see where I would need different.
Although the 248 in my H&H holds more appeal in the swamp.
jakesch
Senior Member
What kind of velocity do you get with the 248? I kind of overlooked some of the middle ones going for speed and BC first. Lol
I would love to see the triangle talked about. Must have overlooked it.
riceman
Global Moderator
Jakesch, looking @ just the numbers both Harperc and Farleg are essentially correct.
Harperc for 0 to 400, 213 for velocity gain.
Farleg for 400 and out 260 maintains Velocity little better.
The 248hh best of both!
I personally don't have a 338. Either one you choose, go in confidence that bull won't know what hit him!
Looking forward to the pictures.
harperc
Global Moderator
Really wasn't clear OOOps. I was speaking of my .375 H&H (Holland and Holland) with the 248 grain HH (Hammer Hunter). My favorite jungle rifle. 2800-2900 fps MV is about where that lives.
I would guess the 246 HH (Hammer Hunter) in the .338 RUM 3000-3100 fps MV.
Point being a bunch of good choices for North American game in there.
I'm a believer in high velocity impacts I like the brackets, unsure where the close ones come together like every one else.
I also believe once the hypervelocity advantage runs out, there are many combo's still performing well. Whats true in the 6MM needing more to work with, isn't as true in the medium bores. I am dropping to the new 55 grain in my 6mm, and dropping the 200 grains in my 06 for either the 152 or 166. So believe more velocity has a lot to offer on our smaller game especially inside a couple of hundred yards. I'm not discounting velocity at all, but I get a little lost on some of the application.
I think the triangle is Impact Velocity, Penetration, Vital Tissue Destruction (Bullet Performance)
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday
Jakesch the triangle is made up of 3 main components
Penertration
Wound channel
Shot placement
Without any of these the triangle fails
GLTAYLOR is responsible for the triangle word I believe & I like it so use it a bit now
I should have also pointed out that basically all of those 338 pills will be fine ( I really like the new 175 ) it was the 400 yrd used as a position to show hopefully how they work ?
Harperc
I may be misunderstanding your question so tell me how this sounds or another way I need to interpret
The velocity brackets “unsure where the close ones come together “
Is this where 2 different weight projectiles launched @ 2 vastly different MV end up @ our chosen range end up in the same bracket ?
This is where I like bojo34 range card he uses the most likely % of a animal getting shot @ over 200 yards & also a muzzle to max the card of jakesch also shows this well if we use what Riceman posted up is correct neither pill is a bad choice it’s to me i will take the heavy inside that bracket but I do need & do assess the whole range card
Or is it the closeness of the brackets of only 300 or so between them ?
This is across a variety of calibers & where on average a visual uptick in preformance noted
I suppose it’s like shooting your x caliber @ a deer ea 150 yrd mark to 900 the visual is apparent yet the one @ 900 just drops & throws the theory out the window yes it happens but not that often just think back where your best kills have been ( triangle again )
I’ll come back to the discussion of the triangle as it’s past midnight & sleep is needed but would gladly wake up to the discussion by others
Cheers
jamesmuhlbeier
Full Member
I love this place
spoonwasher
New Member
Love the topic here guys, lots to take in. This bang-flop ratio chart is going to be a real pia with all the different calibers and bullet weight choices and designs we have here. To simplify things, we need to make some standards on what makes one particular combination of speed, penatration, and rate of expansion to qualify into the bang-flop area of the chart. Maybe someone with more experience and calibers to choose from can help with this. First we need to take one known qualifier and send it thru some ballistics gel to see how it performs compared with a less qualified combination. Basically giving us a visual aid in determining what makes one combo bang-flop or just marginal. Also has anybody used a pressure transducer to monitor the shock wave on a ballistics gel test?
harperc
Global Moderator
Midnight and time zones likely an issue both sides of the equator.
I'm not seeing the 175 listed it should be a great bullet to exploit the bigger .338 potential. 150 might get close to the lofty 4000 fps.
I'm mostly trying to draw out your thoughts:
1) I like the brackets.
2) How much difference it takes to make a difference is what I'm trying to get at. For discussion I threw out 500 fps, ButterBean said 200 fps, you mention 300 fps.
3) In cartridges many consider "overkill" here such as the .338 RUM, or .375 perhaps the differences need to be at the upper end to see something improve.
4) I'm looking forward to the 55 grain HH in my 6mm Remington. It's used mostly inside 200 yards, on our smaller big game by youth. I've rarely been completely happy with performance. Dropping to almost half bullet weight, and adding 1000 fps is appealing.
5) Losing 50-60 grains in my .30-06 for velocity gain of 500 fps has appeal for many situations.
6) The 248 HH in the .375 H&H easily replaces the 350 grain Barnes with another 500 fps, and terminal performance at any range.
7) For the .300 RUM in the pipeline, I'm studying the lighter choices as well.
8) I like the looks of the 120 LH in 7.62X39 and .30-30 maybe 150-200 fps improvement over the 143 LH
In the discussion of the .338 RUM the 275 fps favoring the 213 HH at the muzzle really I can't see as a factor for our game here. At 600 yards (my limit) still favors the 213 HH. At sea level by 147 fps, at 8000' by 113 fps. Still not meaningful to me. The 260 HH no doubt still being a great killer of elk, and one I could use as well. Even at sea level, they're both above 1800 fps at 900 yards.
Anyway that's why I would "PREFER" the 213 HH .338 RUM.
Now donkeys/horses striped or not could be a different story P-)
farleg
Platinum Member
I’m all ears spoonwasher
pressure guages we are onto that although not in gel but please understand this is not going to happen overnight & we don’t even no if it’s going to work as some great thoughts just turn out to be a dud
yes it’s a Pia & a lot to take in but here’s what I like is the info on the forum from ea individual & together it becomes a great data base ( the best information we can get IMO ) & 1 I wish I had of taken notes on ea individual kill something like this
Caliber
projectile weight
impact velocity
animal
Then the result in 4 parts
penertration
wound channel if can it’s hard in field conditions
shot placement
& the distance travelled to tipping over
As this is what I have done on my own data
if we could get a section like share your hammer loads & people put this in here it would be extremely valuable & the brackets overtime would become a lot clearer
now this is not upto me & it’s also another step that some people just couldn’t be bothered others would gladly help as that’s what they like doing
& then you have the part of the trolls that put in bad info for their own preconceived ideas that’s the hard ones to deal with as it can get ugly on this caliber is better yep seen that around plenty of campfires & one I like to avoid
Just some food for thought on this side of the ditch
Cheers
jakesch
Senior Member
Now I really like this idea...you could have someone like harperc and/or gltaylor monitor it for non-useful information and delete non-relative / subjective post. Maybe add it to a spreadsheet with caliber, impact velocity, shot placement, animal, distance traveled after shot, other notes
I personally only have 2 hammer kills:
Bull Elk (~700 lb), .308, 181 HH at ~3000 fps, high shoulder, bang flop
Cow Elk (~400 lb), .308, 181 HH at ~2200 fps, far back lung shot, traveled 100 feet before she expired
Actually as I typed that I wonder if the higher velocity impact is able to disrupt the CNS with bullet impacts further from it? Like each bracket gives you CNS results whiles shooting further from it.
Now I want to figure out the physics behind it!!!!! Appears to be some form of hydrostatic shock.
*EDIT* Looking at studies that show that hydrostatic shock hits in the vitals can cause ruptured blood vessels in the brain cause the bang flop. Man this is fascinating...maybe one day I will be able to retire from my normal day job to study more!
jakesch
Senior Member
I want to add...bullet frontal area plays a significant part of this. Hammers allow us to take advantage of larger frontal diameters at extreme speeds while still providing exceptional penetration. A .338 at the same weight and speed of a .284 will produce more of a shock. That sounds like a fun test to take a video off!
I know I am not saying anything new here...more of writing it out for myself
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday Carl
“ trying to draw out your thoughts “
Man I have trouble doing that myself lol
Serious now
Really I’ve found depending on caliber & animal
Eg go to the big bores on buff you move above the 2100 to just the 2200 & it’s noticeable & on the 2400 very noticeable then you get into the energy guys & while I’ll agree on that with old school soft nose the bar has moved considerably & to monos the first ones that really changed this that I say were raptors although I fiddled with a lot of brands previously these were a game changer as you could really start pushing velocity on these guys & now move to hammers & the bar is set higher again & the 50 cal I can’t wait
Move that to 224 on goats ( our feral not your lope ) & it takes considerably more to see a difference & 500/600 brackets is a way better indicator of performance to be expected visually
It’s so hard to put a blanket over so many animals & calibers & those brackets are pretty close I think to a overall perspective across the board definitely not a this will do that in this caliber
Overall it’s been pretty good @ showing move to the next bracket & we see animals time to tipping over reduced ea step up the line , your thoughts & others ?
On the 338 that 213 on those sums I wouldn’t have a problem but the new 175 ( when Steve releases it is going to be the new one in that rum to your 600 & in )
I think Yes those donkeys & horses striped or not are a great leveller
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Don’t worry about writing it out for yourself as it helps us all & especially the new comers to hammers as this will help tremendously
spot on
those tests are cool & shows exactly what your saying
for where we are @ the moment it’s just getting people to have that mind shift from what we were bought up with & the next generation shooters are taking this in their stride as my sons don’t hesitate to go the lightweight hyper route where I’m still stuck back a bit yet but getting better
Exciting times ahead & just getting one bracket is a huge step & the first step is always the hardest but it’s also the safest
I love this place & you guys
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
I'm looking forward to it.
I really want to compare the results to the Accubond I think 3600 should be fairly easy to do.
In the cup and core type I quit using the 180 on game as it just destroyed them. Cleaning them was just too much, and I'm not one that usually cares much about such things. A very good varmint load though. The 225's and 250's are nowhere near as destructive.
The Hammer should be much more friendly to the meat.
korhil78
New Member
Good evening. I am the person that staged the pigs at 800 yards and shot them in the shoulder. It was pretty devastating even at approximately1880 FPS impact. It entered the shield on the boars shoulder and broke into the chest cavity. Petals leaving dime sized holes and the shank leaving a half dollar sized hole. There were also bone shards that went into the chest cavity. As I said on the LRH forum, I would have no issue shoulder shooting or behind the shoulder shooting an elk at 800 yards with my setup and the 7mm 169 Gr hammer hunters going 3125 FPS. I would not shoulder shoot an elk with a berger bullet at that distance for sure.
I am not a real big proponent of energy numbers. You get the bullet that will give you the best range at which 1800 FPS will be achieved and you will be good. Also, marginal stability is not your friend with long copper bullets. If I’m using long copper bullets, I’ll go above what the recommended twist rate is. Example: If my barrel is an 8 twist, I’ll use bullets that are recommended for 8.5 or higher. I have used copper bullets that call for an 8 twist and sometimes they are not stable enough or spinning enough to get good expansion.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Your gonna fit right in here, thanks for the information, I love this place
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Another welcome.
I agree with the above 100+%. Using more twist than the recommended minimum and getting much higher stability factor than 1.5 is amazing - even on whitetails.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday jakesch
howz the study going lol
Can you post up a reference to those study documents please
side note on brackets I was asked if I had to try & get to one of the brackets from a conventional position
( 30 cal 180 gr @ 2500 /2600 most likely impacts )
id try & get to the 2800/3200 bracket it just has the best bang for buck & in this case is real easy to get to as he’s a mid range shooter ( 400 in ) , the long range guys are going to find it harder I’d say but need to do sums as per normal
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday korhil78
come on Berger they will kill anything @ any range right
oh I forgot on big bones they are perfect lol now the dark side of hammers
Simple they just work but where you have hit the nail on the head is the SF
I like the thought & a few of us use that method also
do you think that as the size of the animal increases & range the SF should be increased to a way higher level
this also ties in with working these brackets out as if you’ve got a really good SF vrs a marginal one you can have potentially a better result ( withi the same bracket) especially @ the longer ranges hence lower velocities impacts
if your keen to do some more tests along this line I’d be keen to help where I can
on bean I’m sure you no him well from lrh but on here we keep him very honest & his secret desire will eventually come out as his post above is to try & shift focus from the true picture he’s working up to
I can see a bow tie & creedmore in his YouTube videos one day
cheers
joe16
Platinum Member
X2 on the bow tie
I think he would rather gargle rhinoceros toe nails than the other. Jm2cwJoe
farleg
Platinum Member
I’ve never dismissed anything in my life joe
while there’s life there’s hope
maybe those 85 gr pills would sweeten the deal
cheers
richcotte
Platinum Member
WOW!!!
So much knowledge to absorb here.
As someone just getting back into hunting after roughly 25 years, the world has certainly changed. Add to that, the decision to move over to mono/non-toxic bullets and I’m on a very steep learning curve. Probably the hardest part is trying to balance the last 10 years of LR cup and core steel ringing and paper punching experience with how a copper bullet is going to act on flesh…
I LOVE THIS PLACE!!!!
korhil78
New Member
I dont think the stability factor is going to be determined by the size of the animal. I think once you get a favorable stability it is going to work on any animal that is acceptable for you to shoot with that bullet. Meaning, I wouldnt go shoot a hippo with my 169 Gr hammer hunter load. Once you start getting acceptable expansion, you are good. I used the 177 Gr hammer hunter on a pig once and it did kill the pig but it did not do as much damage as the 169 Gr hammer hunter that I am using now. The SF of the 169 is 2.03 and the 177 is 1.81. I really do believe that the bullet being so much longer with the monos, needs to have a higher SF than a cup and core bullet to perform and shoot better.
I do know for a fact that my 177 hammer hunter load that I had would shoot very inconsistent at 1000 yards but would shoot very well at 400. The 169 Gr hammer will shoot very well all the way out to 1000 yards. It’s not going that much faster than my 177 Gr load. Could it be the difference in SF? In my opinion, like it has been said before, 2+ SF is where it’s at for monos.
mbruce
Platinum Member
Jack Neary has a fantastic video on YouTube where he discusses a bullet hole's shape and characteristics to determine stability.
I believe it's in one of his "Jack's VV Reloading Class" series. There's 12 of those so you might just have to work through them to get to it.
He mentions in addition to the hole shape, the black ring (colored ring if you color your bullets) being consistent around the edge of the hole.
If the black ring isn't consistent then your bullet isn't optimally stabilized.
He discusses how a stabilized bullet will cut the paper instead of tear it in a ragged hole. Few other characteristics are discussed.
So if one only has access to a 100 yard range...one can use his tips to help identify if the bullet is optimally stabilized for longer ranges or for optimal terminal performance.
mevertsen
Junior Member
I ran a stability factor calculator for my load.
3006 152 HH. 2900 FPS. 6000 FT and 59 degrees. 10 twist.
Came to 2.6?
According to the Berger calculator, that is very good.
Does this seem right?
ButterBean
Platinum Member
ShoNuff
harperc
Global Moderator
Yes it does/is. I always plug in sea level, as if it work there it works higher. In this case it would be 2.09.
harperc
Global Moderator
I started those awhile back (minimally into it) but educational. I need to try again. I kind of got lost on load tuning for conditions, and barrel tuners.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday korhil78
thanks for the info
this maybe my interpretation & off the mark a little so please accept my apology no offence intended
overall I think we are pretty well on the same page but could I have your thoughts on the following ( or anyone else )
I agree on a animal wont determine the SF that’s started once ignition has commenced
what we’ve found & observed is even on the a SF of 2 or extremely close 1.983 (281hh )that the projectile in the last part of its journey showed a tendency to tumble & lessened the terminal damage for that part of the wound channel overall compared to the 2.4 (248hh ) of the lighter pill these are in 375 cal
30 cal the same animals the stability showed the same traights
When we moved to smaller animals we never saw a difference on wound channel as my thoughts the projectile was stable ( straight line ) & exited before it got to the unstable part of its journey
This is where I like gel as it’s showed that tendency to tumble /yaw /turn on the path of a projectile as it’s way easier to trace but animals are more fun & my gel media
where the difference was on the velocity impact that the animal showed a different reaction hence the velocity brackets
where i think potentially we need to watch SF more closely is on the bigger animals & your guys elk & especially the big bears as if we get a pill to tumble / yaw / turn
it can’t be relied to go straight line you & animal potentially are in a world of hurt especially as angle & length to get to vitals are increased
the other part we are working on is a SF of say 4 what does this do inside the animal ?? Is it a deeper straight & wider wound path
A few of us believe a real good possibility hence it maybe possible to get a 150 to penertrate like a 170 ?
first & foremost is a particular design is showing different traights of wound channels & one we should also pay attention to
please don’t take this as being a smart ar$e
We are just trying to put this puzzle together a little more to get the best possible outcome for hunter & animal
& welcome anyone to the party
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday mevertsen
ive found the Berger one to be on the high side compared to jbm I don’t no which is the better one ? As this SF working out is new to me so I may be doing something wrong
no altitude on jbm & on those numbers I got 2.127 which is great
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Thanks Carl I should have read your first
cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
www.sensorsone.com/altitude-pressure-units-conversion/
korhil78
New Member
No offense taken. We are all learning here.
mbruce
Platinum Member
There's no question that increased twists rate decreases yaw. You still have pitch though...precession and nutation eventually works it way out.
But there's other elements to how a bullet flies:
Are the bullets perfectly balanced?
Is the chamber aligned with the axis of the barrel?
Are the barrel lands and grooves uniformed?
Is the bullet releasing from the case uniformly
Any of those above can cause bullet stability issues that a stability factor will not measure or correct.
Increased twists rate will decrease yaw, but it will increase the effects of the others listed above.
That test of using a huge stability factor would be hard to nail down because so many other variables will change
But I like the experimenting and conversation...the only way to get better is to try to make better.
Relentless pursuit of better
Severe over-stabilization is a neat topic because little experimenting has been done in this area. Mainly because cup and core bullets would shred apart and they have other balancing characteristics Hammer's don't have.
Here's a neat contraption rigged to show a balanced bullet:
joe16
Platinum Member
Fellas
Shot 2 pigs this evening, 6.5 06 85 grain zoomie, and impact vel of 3300 and 3200. Red pig was broadside at approximately 150 yards It never took another step true Bang flop shot was Center Mass the black pig at the shot quarter towards me and stopped it at about 120 out facing me giving me enough time to put another shell in my TC pro hunter he was shot facing me Bullet entering bottom jaw he flopped over switched a few times not a true bang flop. But he never took another step
Red pig was approximately 90 lb and black pig was approximately 70 lb if this helps in evaluating this bullet
No post-mortem was done other than noticing that the exit wound on the red pig was caliber size
but like I said she did not move from a Center Mass body shot. I did not try to recover a bullet from the black pig it is simply impossible with my hands in this condition the pigs were drugged to the canal Edge and fed to the alligators.Not sure what bracket they fall into but they checked all points of the triangle for these pigs, that's for sure
I hope this helps
Joe
ButterBean
Platinum Member
A bang flop with a center mass shot on a pig is unheard of, I love this place
bojo34
Full Member
farleg said:
Gday thought I better post some pics of the 30 cal 101 blackout @ hyper velocities & what happened
very interesting data IMO
this shot was impact around 4K
placement behind the shoulder broadside
View Attachment
through centre of lungs
on impact this pill exhibits more sideways bubble than length & it shows in the wounds I believe
on entry it took 3 ribs out split diaphragm View Attachmentmajorly
& slightly ruptured stomach & a lot of blood between hide , meat & hide partedView AttachmentView Attachment the first lung was around 3/4 gone
move to the second lung & the shank had slowed considerably ( no petals made it this far or any other wound damage in lung & still looked as it was pretty functional ) classic solid slow wound through the lung just under 1/2 inch hole ( that’s no other damage just the permanent wound channel from shank ) View Attachment
shank exited just busting one rib on way through & about calibre exit View Attachment
what can we learn from this ?
to me it goes perfectly with the mechanics needed & speaks volumes for the triangle
some food for thought anyway
cheers
Farleg,
Would you mind expanding your thoughts on mechanics that failed here? So you mention the triangle being Impact velocity, penetration, and shot placement. There's clearly some overlap between velocity and penetration. Impact Velocity and shot placement both checked off here so what do you think caused the relatively poor penetration? Do you think you found the limit on the lower end for light/fast in 30 cal with respect to weight? Or is your guess it was more likely bullet shape/length more than weight? I believe you've seen good penetration from the .284/101 at lower velocities from your 7-08 so probably not the weight alone? Or should a 101 gr pill only be driven at a certain max velocity irrespective of caliber because it just doesn't have enough weight to withstand the counter force from the hyper impact velocity?
Don't mean to be a pest but seems you all learned something important here I'm just having trouble keeping up as usual.
joe16
Platinum Member
Great question seems on wonder from Down Under might be sleeping off a few
you got to holler at him."FAAARRRLLEEEGGGGG"
riceman
Global Moderator
Bojo, ill take a stab at it while your waiting for farleg.
The 101blk out bullet is a little different than your typical hh. Its designed for impact velocities well below 4k. The bullet never failed, we pushed it 2x past what it was designed for.
The 101 has a hp of 2mm and shank retention like a deadblow.
At 4k impact the bullet opens so quick causing farleg's bubble to radiate out vs out and forward.
If it had a 1.5mm hp and a shank retention like most hh 60/70% it would have been different.
If I don't get a chance tonight with my 7mm and 131, I'm still going to use the 101s in my 300WM.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
That’s 100% on the money
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday
Joe it’s a longways across that ditch so just heard it lol
Bean x2
Riceman thanks
Bojo great question we started down the road of this 101 cause someone didn’t have a rum yet wanted rum velocities so the seed was planted from this knuckle head ( Riceman ) & it’s been the best chance we have to show you guys what we mean in the mechanics so a big thanks goes to Riceman
The 101 definitely hasn’t failed & it’s more potent than the 180 in those particular animals ( yes it’s dropping them quicker than the heavies but the 124&137 reign supreme as they have the full mechanics covered on these animals 30 caliber)
Where it has been extremely valuable is how we need to look @ the mechanics so we can get the optimum killing projectile in our own chosen caliber on our chosen game
This is where it becomes hard to address as we have limited opportunities to compare projectile performance
Scenario 1
Eg the 180 & 101 on a deer full broadside shooter 2 tags for the year
180 bangflop
101 10 yrd run
On the face of it we would say the 180 is the better pill right ?
No absolutely not for me I’d take the 101 everyday & now we enter the world of the mechanics
Broadside penertration max 12 in chest cavity
The 180 exhibits a long narrower bubble that most of it is never achieved/ utilised as it’s out of the chest cavity of the animal compared to the 101 extremely wide yet short length bubble before it tapers & it will kill more emphatic as it just destroys more vitals
& or blood pressure spike
Where we need to look is same scenario except a last rib to front Farleg & I’ll take the 180 ea & every time as the bubble that the 180 posses will be more damaging than the 101 as the 101 just doesn’t lend itself to a longer bubble ( drop velocity & it will I’m sure all will work very efficiently as per Riceman post & tests are about to be carried out by my son over the weekend if the weathers kind to confirm our thoughts or if Riceman gets his act together & stops messing with the heavy 7 mm pills lol )
How can we address this from a position before we get into the field is pretty easy & we should address
But I’ll leave that for a separate post as I’ve got to go & do some work just hope what Riceman & I put up answers your questions if not fire away & your definitely not a pain it’s great to get the questions out there as we all learn & I like the part that makes us take stock
& ive rambled enough sorry
Cheers
bojo34
Full Member
Riceman=> Thanks for specs on the .308/101 didn't realize what it was. Clearly should have read product description before asking my question. Knowing it's construct goes a long way toward explaining the results.
Farleg=> thanks for correction didn't mean to imply the 101 failed poor choice of words on my part. But given you weren't recommending it after your on game results it clearly didn't live up to expectations so just trying to understand where it fell short vs alternatives. I now have a much clearer picture.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday sorry for the absence had to get onto some info & fishing takes awhile sometimes especially the old gut hooks but it’s nearly time to set the hook lol
Velocity bracket update
Been also doing some research in regards to the brackets & hammers as that grey area was bugging me
So after searching a lot from you guys here & some on LRH combine that with my data & a clearer picture has emerged on the hammers & brackets so a bit of shuffling has occurred
Once again this is not this caliber or pill is better than another ( pill design is showing traits also but another time please & more testing is going on till that side becomes more reliable of a indicator)
So here’s the updated version & as always as more info or designs become available these brackets may shift
1800-2100
2100-2400
2400-2750
2750-3200
3200 plus
Triangle must be supported to complement these brackets
I’ve got richotte data on a sheet & will do a few others to show the potential of where we can improve our killing efficiency & I’ll eat my words I was wrong on a few thoughts & thanks to rich for showing another path is also available
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday
im the dunce in the corner & here’s my spreadsheet that proves that I’m no good @ the tech stuff so out comes the pen & paper
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hammerbullets.boards.net
some interesting data & I slipped the 7-08 119 AH for my own benefit & surprised where it fell
the 7-08 load 101HH was mine also all the rest including the 308 & 6.5 creedmore were sourced from the load data that GL has collected & put together then averaged out to that velocity used so I’d say a pretty close representation
the first lot of data in the 30 cal was from richotte ( thanks for spending the time to help out )
Once again ea person can take these as they find them & make sure that triangle is covered
so just do the inputs from the data sheets on a few scenarios like above & see if you can jump a bracket or 2 with your combo to get to a even better killing efficiency with hammers
note don’t think the frangible can be applied to these brackets with certainty as I’ve had major problems when you get 3 k plus as the triangle is compromised now & then & I don’t like failure
& if anyone wants to go below the 1800 impact with hammers as Steve advises make sure you test to confirm the pill preforms
Cheers
harperc
Global Moderator
You've been busy! I've been worried you got cow kicked or something.
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Thanks Farleg. Interesting data! My favorite pill in the 6.5 is the 85 grain. You just validated my on-game performance observations this year! Cool!
buckys
New Member
This is great.
I think that this boils down to - find the set of bullets with the highest velocity bracket for the expected range and then pick the heaviest bullet option from that group - am I over-simplifying?
A very common question about Hammers is which bullet option should I try first for a given cartridge.
To that end, has anyone tried to start compiling stats that effectively would give you a MV histogram or mean/median/stddev for cartridge vs. barrel length vs. Hammer bullet weight? I'm thinking that gltaylor's spreadsheet is the best we have here?
rngrfromthemtns
Full Member
I missed the beginning of this thread and got sucked into over lunch. Man this is some great info. I'm going to have to sit down with some of the existing data and run the numbers for my a few rifles that I haven't chosen bullets for yet. My 6.5 needmoor is tragically with a chosen bullet and it needs to shoot something.