(originally posted 1/7/2020)
Steve Davis
Administrator
We have been reviewing our bullets and determined that some of our bullets need to have the hollow point a bit deeper. This will result in a grain or two of weight reduction. This determination comes from observations and feedback from customers on how our bullets are performing on game. When we first designed our bullets we were not concerned about the shed weight, but as time has gone by we can not ignore the results on game when the amount of nose that is shed is increased. The shock that is created by a bit more nose deformation is much more beneficial than we originally thought. So if you see a slight drop in weight from the last time that you ordered your favorite bullet don't be surprised. You should not see any difference in how the bullet loads or shoots.
As I have said before, we will never quit looking for ways to make our bullets better. On game performance is and will always be what is most important to us.
Thanks to all of you!
riceman
Global Moderator
Steve,
Is that to both lines, sh and hh?
Rich Coyle
Platinum Member
I'm looking forward to my first order of 8mm 200. They should be great by the time I order.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Yes. The change will be minor is weight. Only a couple of g. You shouldn't be able to tell the difference in load or impact. We hate to change anything but terminal performance is the most important thing in our hunting bullets.
It is not all bullets just some that we should have run the hp a bit deeper. We are talking about an 1/8" at the most deeper. We just redid the 83g .243 Sledge Hammer last night. That one is probably the biggest change and it came down to 80g. Most of the bullets will be unaffected as they need no change.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Rich Coyle said:
I'm looking forward to my first order of 8mm 200. They should be great by the time I order.
They are perfect now!
BigGame
Full Member
Steve, this is interesting and I'd love to hear more. Is it the case that some bullets were not shedding petals as large as you'd anticipated, or that you've changed your goals and now want them to shed larger petals? If the latter, I'm interested to hear what you've learned that has inspired the change. Also (again, if it's the latter), can you give us a revised expectation of what portion of weight you're targeting to shed for HH, SH, and the rest now?
One more thing, which I think is related. I've heard you comments several times that the twist rate, or RPMs of the bullet, have an impact on terminal effects, separate from considerations for airborne stability. I'd love to hear more about what you're finding there, too.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Well the best test media is big game animals. After taking animals and getting feed back from customers for the last 5 years we have determined that the shock created by the nose opening and shedding is more noticeable when it is a deeper hollow point. Some of our shorter nosed bullets have corresponding shorter hollow points so the amount of shed nose is less. We are not talking much change. So far the biggest change that we have made is to the 83g .243 cal Sledge Hammer. We took the hollow point to the shoulder and it resulted in the bullet now weighing 80g. I think this will be the biggest change that we will see in any of the bullets.
Rich Coyle
Platinum Member
Thanks for keeping abreast of what we need for the best performanc
mcd
Senior Member
Any chance of putting out a spreadsheet showing affected bullets and by how much when you guys get a chance? I would assume this affects the Sledge Hammer line more than the Hammer Hunter, as the HH is designed to shed more weight already, but it would be nice to know for sure.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Yes it will effect the Sledge Hammer line more. After Shot Show we will be spending time updating the website. With the updates we will be listing the actual weight for each bullet vs the namesake.
Thanks to everyone for baring with us as we get better at our trade!
Rich Coyle
Platinum Member
Our pleasure.
ryanwhaley
New Member
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why do you want the bullet to shed petals (Hammer Hunters) rather than mushroom and maintain all its mass (like the Barnes TTSX/LRX)? Do these petals ever end up in your meat grinder?
I've got some 143 Hammer Hunters loaded up in my 7 SAUM, but wasn't able to harvest an animal during rifle season, so I haven't been able to see how they perform in person.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Great question.
I guess it is possible to get a piece of copper in the meat. We have not had it happen. We have recovered petals during the butchering process.
Three things are gained from shedding the petals.
1st is a massive shock or disruption of soft tissue when the petals shed. This is what will increase the chance of animals dropping to the shot or traveling very little.
Second, the shed petals will generally penetrate deeply creating their own permanent wound channels for faster bleeding.
Third, if the petals stay on them the projectile loses velocity rapidly, inside the animal, resulting in smaller permanent wound channel and potentially insufficient penetration.
ryanwhaley
New Member
Thank you! can't wait to give these a try! I did all my load development and now have 50 rounds loaded up and ready to start filling tags! Now just have to wait 10 months for the hunting season......
meatbuck
Platinum Member
Ever hunted with a shotgun? Ever get bbs in your meat grinder? Basically the same thing here. It’s always possible but diligent meat care and butchering should solve that.
Personally ground burger from 7 hammer kills and have not yet found anything in the grind, grinder or meat tubs. Can’t recall ever finding anything when shooting lead either. Fingers crossed I don’t come across any in the latest batch I made.
Duck and geese I often found bbs in the grinding process but nothing with big game.
redram99
Junior Member
Steve, are you going to do any development for the 6mm ARC cartridge or are the 6mm 243 bullets going to be compatible with the ARC?
Steve Davis
Administrator
We have been reviewing our bullets and determined that some of our bullets need to have the hollow point a bit deeper. This will result in a grain or two of weight reduction. This determination comes from observations and feedback from customers on how our bullets are performing on game. When we first designed our bullets we were not concerned about the shed weight, but as time has gone by we can not ignore the results on game when the amount of nose that is shed is increased. The shock that is created by a bit more nose deformation is much more beneficial than we originally thought. So if you see a slight drop in weight from the last time that you ordered your favorite bullet don't be surprised. You should not see any difference in how the bullet loads or shoots.
As I have said before, we will never quit looking for ways to make our bullets better. On game performance is and will always be what is most important to us.
Thanks to all of you!
riceman
Global Moderator
Steve,
Is that to both lines, sh and hh?
Rich Coyle
Platinum Member
I'm looking forward to my first order of 8mm 200. They should be great by the time I order.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Yes. The change will be minor is weight. Only a couple of g. You shouldn't be able to tell the difference in load or impact. We hate to change anything but terminal performance is the most important thing in our hunting bullets.
It is not all bullets just some that we should have run the hp a bit deeper. We are talking about an 1/8" at the most deeper. We just redid the 83g .243 Sledge Hammer last night. That one is probably the biggest change and it came down to 80g. Most of the bullets will be unaffected as they need no change.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Rich Coyle said:
I'm looking forward to my first order of 8mm 200. They should be great by the time I order.
They are perfect now!
BigGame
Full Member
Steve, this is interesting and I'd love to hear more. Is it the case that some bullets were not shedding petals as large as you'd anticipated, or that you've changed your goals and now want them to shed larger petals? If the latter, I'm interested to hear what you've learned that has inspired the change. Also (again, if it's the latter), can you give us a revised expectation of what portion of weight you're targeting to shed for HH, SH, and the rest now?
One more thing, which I think is related. I've heard you comments several times that the twist rate, or RPMs of the bullet, have an impact on terminal effects, separate from considerations for airborne stability. I'd love to hear more about what you're finding there, too.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Well the best test media is big game animals. After taking animals and getting feed back from customers for the last 5 years we have determined that the shock created by the nose opening and shedding is more noticeable when it is a deeper hollow point. Some of our shorter nosed bullets have corresponding shorter hollow points so the amount of shed nose is less. We are not talking much change. So far the biggest change that we have made is to the 83g .243 cal Sledge Hammer. We took the hollow point to the shoulder and it resulted in the bullet now weighing 80g. I think this will be the biggest change that we will see in any of the bullets.
Rich Coyle
Platinum Member
Thanks for keeping abreast of what we need for the best performanc
mcd
Senior Member
Any chance of putting out a spreadsheet showing affected bullets and by how much when you guys get a chance? I would assume this affects the Sledge Hammer line more than the Hammer Hunter, as the HH is designed to shed more weight already, but it would be nice to know for sure.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Yes it will effect the Sledge Hammer line more. After Shot Show we will be spending time updating the website. With the updates we will be listing the actual weight for each bullet vs the namesake.
Thanks to everyone for baring with us as we get better at our trade!
Rich Coyle
Platinum Member
Our pleasure.
ryanwhaley
New Member
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why do you want the bullet to shed petals (Hammer Hunters) rather than mushroom and maintain all its mass (like the Barnes TTSX/LRX)? Do these petals ever end up in your meat grinder?
I've got some 143 Hammer Hunters loaded up in my 7 SAUM, but wasn't able to harvest an animal during rifle season, so I haven't been able to see how they perform in person.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Great question.
I guess it is possible to get a piece of copper in the meat. We have not had it happen. We have recovered petals during the butchering process.
Three things are gained from shedding the petals.
1st is a massive shock or disruption of soft tissue when the petals shed. This is what will increase the chance of animals dropping to the shot or traveling very little.
Second, the shed petals will generally penetrate deeply creating their own permanent wound channels for faster bleeding.
Third, if the petals stay on them the projectile loses velocity rapidly, inside the animal, resulting in smaller permanent wound channel and potentially insufficient penetration.
ryanwhaley
New Member
Thank you! can't wait to give these a try! I did all my load development and now have 50 rounds loaded up and ready to start filling tags! Now just have to wait 10 months for the hunting season......
meatbuck
Platinum Member
Ever hunted with a shotgun? Ever get bbs in your meat grinder? Basically the same thing here. It’s always possible but diligent meat care and butchering should solve that.
Personally ground burger from 7 hammer kills and have not yet found anything in the grind, grinder or meat tubs. Can’t recall ever finding anything when shooting lead either. Fingers crossed I don’t come across any in the latest batch I made.
Duck and geese I often found bbs in the grinding process but nothing with big game.
redram99
Junior Member
Steve, are you going to do any development for the 6mm ARC cartridge or are the 6mm 243 bullets going to be compatible with the ARC?