(Originally posted 10/5/2020)
shinbone
Junior Member
99% of this information came from Butterbean. I added a few personal tweaks here and there. I am just starting to use this technique, but wanted to post my very first results to encourage others to experiment, as well. This post should be read in addition to Butterbean's original post: "How and why I use a Lee Factory Crimp" ( hammerbullets.boards.net/thread/1015/why-use-lee-factory-crimp )
Unlike many other brands of bullets, Hammer bullets seem to respond well to crimping. By "respond well", I mean the handloader will typically see a reduction in group size, an increase in velocity, and a reduction in Extreme Spread of velocity, by applying a suitable amount of crimp to his loads. Like most things in handloading, the "correct amount" has to be found by experimentation. The preferred tool for crimping Hammer bullets is the Lee FCD crimp die. This is the crimp procedure shared with me by Butterbean.
This is how I mark the die ring and crimp body. As marked, the user can easily achieve 1/16T resolution. I use a Forster Coax press, and thus substitute a Forster die ring for the factory-supplied Lee die ring. I use the notch in the Forster die ring as the "0" mark. The photo shows the crimp die set at 1/8T.
Here's a target showing 5-shot groups at 100yds with a 300WSM at 0 crimp, 1/8T, 2/8T, and 4/8T crimp. 124gn Hammer Hunter, 62.3gn IMR 4064, velocity per my Labradar is 3580 at optimum crimp.
This graph makes it a little easier to see the results of crimping the above load. Solid line is group size. Dashed line is velocity.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
That's an awesome write up, Thank You
rngrfromthemtns
Full Member
seems like no crimp is optimal based on your group...thoughts?
shinbone
Junior Member
I'm not sure I follow . . . no crimp produced a 1" group; a 1/8T crimp produced near .6" group. That seems like a significant improvement by crimping. Crimping also bumped up velocity.
rngrfromthemtns
Full Member
what's the group size minus the flyer without a crimp? Horizontal stringing with heavy crimp?
shinbone
Junior Member
Yes, without the flyer, the first group is best. But, in all honesty, flyers count towards group size. Especially uncalled flyers, which that one was. At least that's how I count them.
mbruce
Platinum Member
It would be cool to see if those results are repeatable at the same incremental crimp
shinbone
Junior Member
For sure. This is one test with positive results. With the crimping details broken down to a step-by-step recipe, I am hoping others will give it a try.
I'll be doing more testing, myself, once hunting season has passed.
rngrfromthemtns
Full Member
I have crimp dies ordered for a handful of cartridges. I'm hoping to do the same especially with a couple rifles that are throwing some not great data and whether it's time to send time packing or put more $ into them.
shinbone
Junior Member
I am looking forward to seeing your results.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday shinbone that’s getting laminated & into my draw of references
thanks for spending the time doing this
Love this place
Cheers
joliver
Full Member
very nice! I should be testing 28Nos crimping this weekend. I didn't do varying crimps as i'm still trying to workout Max charge and basic load development. I just used BB's suggestion of seating the die to the cartridge raised in the die. So my crimps should be very light starting out. We will see what the chrono says.
Chungus
Full Member
Butterbean or Shinbone,
Awesome info/write up. I've always just used neck tension to hold bullets in place, so I'm new to crimping. It sounds like crimping is the way to go with hammerS, so I ordered a couple of Lee FCD's to get the job done.
I realize there could be differences in the degree of crimping and crimp location for a specific rifle, but I'm wondering if someone could post some up close photos of what their crimps look like?
Thanks advance!
harperc
Global Moderator
I missed this first time around, very solid work!
jb338
Full Member
I spent a few hours reading and re- reading, I posted a question on just neck tension only. I get it now. (wish there was a light bulb emoji) always leaning. thanks for your help.
shinbone
Junior Member
I would say neck tension and crimping are different from one another, and one does not substitute for the other. I would optimize neck tension first, and then experiment with crimp to see if there is any further improvement to be had.
Maybe Butterbean will chime in here, because he has a lot more experience with crimping than I do.
riceman
Global Moderator
Here's a few pics , close ups.
Pics are of 7rm w/101 hh(2nd pic), 308 win w/137hh(3rd & 4th pic)
And 264wm w109ah(first pic).
To prevent cold welding during long term storage, I dip bullets in dry lube before loading. That can be seen on 264wmw/109ah next to crimp.
These crimps are 1/4 turn.
Hope this helps.
littlebighorn
Full Member
That is awesome riceman!
A picture is always worth more than a thousand words!
Chungus
Full Member
Thanks Harperc, I'm learning a lot from you all and it sounds like I need to brush up on cold welding tonight.
Thanks to Shinbone and Riceman for the info on the progression through neck tension/crimping and photos/dry lube recommendation.
The photos give us a good idea on what the end product will/should look like, and the crimp definitely looks like it will prevent bullet slippage.
Hoping to load some 7mm-08 rounds tomorrow for testing and put all of this new-found knowledge to use. That way when I tell the wife I've been on my phone alot lately because of my intimate relationship with reloading, she knows I'm telling the truth
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Looks like you say they have you on the right track
chad
New Member
So……. Are you all seating the bullet all the way in your case and crimping the first ring in the bullet or are you seating at different depths?
riceman
Global Moderator
Different depths depending type of bullet. Short bullets with only 2 pdr grooves like 124hh 30 cal. and 101hh 7mm go to the top one. This would be to get enough stability for the bullet in the neck.
I always try to seat as long as possible with limitations on magazine length and touching rifling. The first pic from above that I posted was 2nd groove on a absolute hammer bullet.
chad
New Member
I’m loading the 131 hh in 7 mag. So you suggest seating the bullet all in to the top grove to crimp?
riceman
Global Moderator
This a pic of what I loaded for my son. If you zoom in on pic it is second groove.
This load was very good in his 700 rem 7rm.
Es of 3 at 3417 av.
chad
New Member
Ok. I ordered a crimp die and as soon as my gun gets back from the smith I’ll start loading. I’m excited to get these going. Hope the do the job on elk like people are saying.
deadman
New Member
So if we're using Type S dies, do we have to adjust our neck tension target to account for the crimp?
Also, I had a much more knowledgeable person than me comment on where my bullet was seated...does it matter if the bullet is seated on the peak of the gas ring or the valley?
tdot
New Member
Does the length of the case have to be consistent to have consistent crimps? In my head it seems that should be very necessary, yet I cant seem to find that info anywhere. Either for or against consistent case length.
riceman
Global Moderator
Yes trimming your cases to the same length will give you the best even crimp. Various lengths will vary crimp tension. Trying to keep everything as consistent as possible will help your load.
oxn
Junior Member
Okay semi Hammer reloading newb here. Never done any crimping, but trying to take a ~1.25 MOA load into sub-MOA territory. I have the Hornady Custom Grade dies, which allow you do add a roll crimp like so:
Is this similar enough to the crimping you guys describe to be worthwhile, or do you need the FCD dies?
shinbone
Junior Member
99% of this information came from Butterbean. I added a few personal tweaks here and there. I am just starting to use this technique, but wanted to post my very first results to encourage others to experiment, as well. This post should be read in addition to Butterbean's original post: "How and why I use a Lee Factory Crimp" ( hammerbullets.boards.net/thread/1015/why-use-lee-factory-crimp )
Unlike many other brands of bullets, Hammer bullets seem to respond well to crimping. By "respond well", I mean the handloader will typically see a reduction in group size, an increase in velocity, and a reduction in Extreme Spread of velocity, by applying a suitable amount of crimp to his loads. Like most things in handloading, the "correct amount" has to be found by experimentation. The preferred tool for crimping Hammer bullets is the Lee FCD crimp die. This is the crimp procedure shared with me by Butterbean.
This is how I mark the die ring and crimp body. As marked, the user can easily achieve 1/16T resolution. I use a Forster Coax press, and thus substitute a Forster die ring for the factory-supplied Lee die ring. I use the notch in the Forster die ring as the "0" mark. The photo shows the crimp die set at 1/8T.
Here's a target showing 5-shot groups at 100yds with a 300WSM at 0 crimp, 1/8T, 2/8T, and 4/8T crimp. 124gn Hammer Hunter, 62.3gn IMR 4064, velocity per my Labradar is 3580 at optimum crimp.
This graph makes it a little easier to see the results of crimping the above load. Solid line is group size. Dashed line is velocity.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
That's an awesome write up, Thank You
rngrfromthemtns
Full Member
seems like no crimp is optimal based on your group...thoughts?
shinbone
Junior Member
I'm not sure I follow . . . no crimp produced a 1" group; a 1/8T crimp produced near .6" group. That seems like a significant improvement by crimping. Crimping also bumped up velocity.
rngrfromthemtns
Full Member
what's the group size minus the flyer without a crimp? Horizontal stringing with heavy crimp?
shinbone
Junior Member
Yes, without the flyer, the first group is best. But, in all honesty, flyers count towards group size. Especially uncalled flyers, which that one was. At least that's how I count them.
mbruce
Platinum Member
It would be cool to see if those results are repeatable at the same incremental crimp
shinbone
Junior Member
For sure. This is one test with positive results. With the crimping details broken down to a step-by-step recipe, I am hoping others will give it a try.
I'll be doing more testing, myself, once hunting season has passed.
rngrfromthemtns
Full Member
I have crimp dies ordered for a handful of cartridges. I'm hoping to do the same especially with a couple rifles that are throwing some not great data and whether it's time to send time packing or put more $ into them.
shinbone
Junior Member
I am looking forward to seeing your results.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday shinbone that’s getting laminated & into my draw of references
thanks for spending the time doing this
Love this place
Cheers
joliver
Full Member
very nice! I should be testing 28Nos crimping this weekend. I didn't do varying crimps as i'm still trying to workout Max charge and basic load development. I just used BB's suggestion of seating the die to the cartridge raised in the die. So my crimps should be very light starting out. We will see what the chrono says.
Chungus
Full Member
Butterbean or Shinbone,
Awesome info/write up. I've always just used neck tension to hold bullets in place, so I'm new to crimping. It sounds like crimping is the way to go with hammerS, so I ordered a couple of Lee FCD's to get the job done.
I realize there could be differences in the degree of crimping and crimp location for a specific rifle, but I'm wondering if someone could post some up close photos of what their crimps look like?
Thanks advance!
harperc
Global Moderator
I missed this first time around, very solid work!
jb338
Full Member
I spent a few hours reading and re- reading, I posted a question on just neck tension only. I get it now. (wish there was a light bulb emoji) always leaning. thanks for your help.
shinbone
Junior Member
I would say neck tension and crimping are different from one another, and one does not substitute for the other. I would optimize neck tension first, and then experiment with crimp to see if there is any further improvement to be had.
Maybe Butterbean will chime in here, because he has a lot more experience with crimping than I do.
riceman
Global Moderator
Here's a few pics , close ups.
Pics are of 7rm w/101 hh(2nd pic), 308 win w/137hh(3rd & 4th pic)
And 264wm w109ah(first pic).
To prevent cold welding during long term storage, I dip bullets in dry lube before loading. That can be seen on 264wmw/109ah next to crimp.
These crimps are 1/4 turn.
Hope this helps.
littlebighorn
Full Member
That is awesome riceman!
A picture is always worth more than a thousand words!
Chungus
Full Member
Thanks Harperc, I'm learning a lot from you all and it sounds like I need to brush up on cold welding tonight.
Thanks to Shinbone and Riceman for the info on the progression through neck tension/crimping and photos/dry lube recommendation.
The photos give us a good idea on what the end product will/should look like, and the crimp definitely looks like it will prevent bullet slippage.
Hoping to load some 7mm-08 rounds tomorrow for testing and put all of this new-found knowledge to use. That way when I tell the wife I've been on my phone alot lately because of my intimate relationship with reloading, she knows I'm telling the truth
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Looks like you say they have you on the right track
chad
New Member
So……. Are you all seating the bullet all the way in your case and crimping the first ring in the bullet or are you seating at different depths?
riceman
Global Moderator
Different depths depending type of bullet. Short bullets with only 2 pdr grooves like 124hh 30 cal. and 101hh 7mm go to the top one. This would be to get enough stability for the bullet in the neck.
I always try to seat as long as possible with limitations on magazine length and touching rifling. The first pic from above that I posted was 2nd groove on a absolute hammer bullet.
chad
New Member
I’m loading the 131 hh in 7 mag. So you suggest seating the bullet all in to the top grove to crimp?
riceman
Global Moderator
This a pic of what I loaded for my son. If you zoom in on pic it is second groove.
This load was very good in his 700 rem 7rm.
Es of 3 at 3417 av.
chad
New Member
Ok. I ordered a crimp die and as soon as my gun gets back from the smith I’ll start loading. I’m excited to get these going. Hope the do the job on elk like people are saying.
deadman
New Member
So if we're using Type S dies, do we have to adjust our neck tension target to account for the crimp?
Also, I had a much more knowledgeable person than me comment on where my bullet was seated...does it matter if the bullet is seated on the peak of the gas ring or the valley?
tdot
New Member
Does the length of the case have to be consistent to have consistent crimps? In my head it seems that should be very necessary, yet I cant seem to find that info anywhere. Either for or against consistent case length.
riceman
Global Moderator
Yes trimming your cases to the same length will give you the best even crimp. Various lengths will vary crimp tension. Trying to keep everything as consistent as possible will help your load.
oxn
Junior Member
Okay semi Hammer reloading newb here. Never done any crimping, but trying to take a ~1.25 MOA load into sub-MOA territory. I have the Hornady Custom Grade dies, which allow you do add a roll crimp like so:
Is this similar enough to the crimping you guys describe to be worthwhile, or do you need the FCD dies?
