Gday I think a lot has been covered by some great minds & real life results , I can’t offer a lot more to the conversation
But no one has put up a discussion on where & how the energy we all grew up with has any relation to killing preformance & more against the use of it as a reliable indicator even getting people into trouble yes the energy transition part I get that but how to implement it in a formula I’ve got no idea & leave that alone for the smart ones
Here’s my take
On the energy if we can get a better understanding of what’s involved to get the pill to its terminal form as quick as possible without diminishing the bubble I think that’s where we will gain more effectiveness on terminal preformance & one with recent results & great minds have found some very promising traits & some very intriguing results are waiting in the wings
The Triangle is still the most beneficial part we can look @ in getting the job done but the penertration leg is where most are having trouble with on thoughts as most are not understanding how hard it is to stop these hammer shanks getting over penertration which is usually from a bigger slower pill ( I’m getting some lightweights to out penertrate the heavier pills) faster shank does more terminal damage as long as penertration is there so we should be aiming for the quickest possible shank
I’ve left different petal patterns out but also adds to killing preformance
Can’t wait till Steve & Brian get those big bores cranking as they are the stopping calibers well Steve’s will be sorry Brian but I also dont believe we have seen the full value of the 416 yet the 500 Jeffery is going to new levels
It’s around midnight here & I’m in need of some zzzz
Thanks for some great personal experiences/ thoughts from the newer members & if any new comers are reading thinking hammers are deficient please understand we are trying to raise the bar once again with hammers preformance & one personally hammers are the best @ covering more bases than any other brand I’ve used hands down just imagine that 30 cal 124 hh working on buffalo yep wrap your head around what’s needed for that to become a consistent outcome
Still no closed mind here but for me until the energy guys come up with info supporting their side it’s all just white noise that becomes quite boring as the facts @ present support velocity as king with on game results that can’t be denied yes I can show where I’ve been wrong , best one is a 375 cal 200 gr pill on buff for around nearly 5000 ftlbs of impact or a 275 gr @ around 4500 ftlbs yet the 30 cal 124 with 4500 ftlbs knocked buff over better
Keep up the great conversation people I’m going to sign off more likely on this thread well until I’m killing time @ airports
Cheers
Farleg, I agree with you about energy. So, how much energy did it take to kill my last elk? He wouldn't turn broadside. The only shot I had was a chest shot during our stare down at 45 yards. The projectile entered the chest and exited just in front of right ham. The bull elk did a 20 yard half circle and dropped dead. He never left our sight (my partner Josh was there.) The energy of the projectile was 56 foot-pounds. Yes, just 56 foot-pounds. The deer I shot this year was at 30 yards with the same projectile. It went 20 yards. If you haven't guessed yet, I was using a bow. I'm the only guy in my group of hunters that uses a two blade broadhead. Why? Penetration! I'm switching to Hammers for the same reason - Penetration. The pedals that damage the organs with the right shot are a whole new paradigm in how a bullet kills. So, I'm in the process of figuring out which bullet I want to use this fall. As I scrutinize the various threads around here, I'm not so much concerned about the shank penetrating, but I'm trying to figure out the mass needs of the pedals that break off to do max damage. The more I hang out on Hammer Time, the more I see the need for speed.
You can’t compare energy with arrows and energy with bullets. It is not apples to apples. An arrow kills by cutting. A bullet kills by crushing and transferring energy. By using a point and sharp broadhead you are minimal resistance and what energy is there is purely for penetration. The broadhead is very effecient use of energy in creating a wound as the surface area for cutting is very small but effective. Target resistance is low because velocity is low. A bullet is not effecient. Contrary to arrows, things you do to make a bullet more effective revolve around increasing resistance - larger caliber, higher impact velocity, expansion, fragmentation, etc…. and inreasing energy (velocity/mass) as you need energy to do the work destroying tissue. If you used a blunt arrow how would that work out, but we know in general terms a blunt bullet is more effective.
For bullets, the amount of tissue crushed / destroyed is proportional to the KE transferred to target. What we are dancing around is that assuming the energy is applied to vitals making a mess of things it doesnt really take much assuming penetration is sufficient. It may take a little longer to kill something with less energy transfer (wounding) but it is still relatively quick. The most conservative view on this is to use the most penetrating bullet since sufficient penetration is the most important. The most aggressive view is we want to dump all the energy in target doing work as energy spent beyond is wasted. In the field, there are cases where more penetration is important and there are cases where wider wounding is more important so it is not clear cut.
For me personally, I look at historically what works and use that as a guide for cartridge selection/energy requirements. Playing with bullet construction, weights, impact velocity, etc.. just changes how the energy is transferred to target but does not really change my cartridge selection for game. I personally want some fragmentation as it greatly increasing wounding in game - directly through the wound track and indirectly as making more of the effects of the large temporary wound cavity permanent. That is what got me interested in hammers to begin with.
Hey gltaylor, I am willing to bet that the slow heavy Shock Hammer from the 338-06 will have pretty stunning terminal results, without long runs after the shot. I think we need to get you set up with some slow heavies for your deprivation tags that are soon to be used! For the sake of science. What rifle candidate do you have?
Jun 26, 2022 at 11:32amlou270 said:
You can’t compare energy with arrows and energy with bullets. It is not apples to apples. An arrow kills by cutting. A bullet kills by crushing and transferring energy. By using a point and sharp broadhead you are minimal resistance and what energy is there is purely for penetration. The broadhead is very effecient use of energy in creating a wound as the surface area for cutting is very small but effective. Target resistance is low because velocity is low. A bullet is not effecient. Contrary to arrows, things you do to make a bullet more effective revolve around increasing resistance - larger caliber, higher impact velocity, expansion, fragmentation, etc…. and inreasing energy (velocity/mass) as you need energy to do the work destroying tissue. If you used a blunt arrow how would that work out, but we know in general terms a blunt bullet is more effective.
For bullets, the amount of tissue crushed / destroyed is proportional to the KE transferred to target. What we are dancing around is that assuming the energy is applied to vitals making a mess of things it doesnt really take much assuming penetration is sufficient. It may take a little longer to kill something with less energy transfer (wounding) but it is still relatively quick. The most conservative view on this is to use the most penetrating bullet since sufficient penetration is the most important. The most aggressive view is we want to dump all the energy in target doing work as energy spent beyond is wasted. In the field, there are cases where more penetration is important and there are cases where wider wounding is more important so it is not clear cut.
For me personally, I look at historically what works and use that as a guide for cartridge selection/energy requirements. Playing with bullet construction, weights, impact velocity, etc.. just changes how the energy is transferred to target but does not really change my cartridge selection for game. I personally want some fragmentation as it greatly increasing wounding in game - directly through the wound track and indirectly as making more of the effects of the large temporary wound cavity permanent. That is what got me interested in hammers to begin with.
This reminds me. I think we are all on the same page about what happens with bullet impacts. I think there is a wide gap in thoughts on how it happens. Maybe some of it is simply terminology.
Jun 26, 2022 at 11:38amSteve Davis said:
Hey gltaylor, I am willing to bet that the slow heavy Shock Hammer from the 338-06 will have pretty stunning terminal results, without long runs after the shot. I think we need to get you set up with some slow heavies for your deprivation tags that are soon to be used! For the sake of science. What rifle candidate do you have?
Lou270 - I agree with everything you said. That was supposed to be my point. Hammer Bullets have changed the Paradigm in how bullets kill. A blunt shank with 4 pedals breaking off to cause massive damage is different than any other bullet. As I've read a lot of the posts here in Hammer Time, I've noticed that even with this design sometimes you get 5 exit holes! I've killed several big game animals with other mono copper bullets. They had nice mushrooms, they did the job. I only have recovered 2 of them, but the exit holes showed the evidence of a nice mushroom expansion. They were designed to imitate lead-core bullets. Hammer has innovated rather than imitated. I've killed big game with everything from a 22 cal to a 45 cal. I hope everyone is having fun developing and testing loads. If not, my grandpa insisted that the only worthwhile round for big game was the 30/06 with the 220 grain roundnose. I shot my first 3 whitetails with that round. I was visiting with my father-in-law last week who used to be my hunting partner. He insisted that my 6.5 was just too small for big game. He was a 7mm Rem Mag addict until he got to old to hunt. Whatever you hunt with, the object is to drop the blood pressure of the animal and shut the brain down as fast and you can.
There are three things I have learned about Hammer bullets so far. 1. They are very accurate! I really haven't had a bad group yet. 2. They are slippery for a mono - copper bullet. One of my grips with other copper bullets has been the friction. 3. They will deliver a beyond caliber kill zone because of their design to have 4 pedals deploy into the animal and a blunt shank to provide penetration.
What I have decided (my opinion). I jumped on the 124 grain 6.5 bullets for the 6.5 Creedmoor because of the S&B 120 grain copper bullet. As I have been shooting various weights of Hammer Bullets, I have decided that for the CM, the 124 grain are too heavy. Remember this is my opinion. I can't get my head around using the 85 grain on deer yet. I've got some 92 Power Hammers I'm going to shoot in the morning, and I'm leaning that direction. That said, I also have the 115 Power Hammers too. It seems like Hammer Bullets gives us almost too many choices! I've got some 109 grain Absolute loads to test as well. The truth is, I'm sure if I put the bullet where I'm supposed to, any of the Hammer bullets are going to do the job.
Jun 26, 2022 at 11:38amSteve Davis said:
Hey gltaylor, I am willing to bet that the slow heavy Shock Hammer from the 338-06 will have pretty stunning terminal results, without long runs after the shot. I think we need to get you set up with some slow heavies for your deprivation tags that are soon to be used! For the sake of science. What rifle candidate do you have?
Well, let's try this again. I lost my first post. Probably just as well, I was teasing Steve.
It went something like:
Uhhh, Steve,
I've shot 205SH and 213HH in my 338 Sherman. Velocities were just over 3000 and 2900+. They worked fine and the deer ran, but not too far (good thing).
I'm just spoiled and like bang-FLOP, which I generally get with the 85 gr zoomies in my 6.5 @4k+!
Jun 26, 2022 at 11:38amSteve Davis said:
Hey gltaylor, I am willing to bet that the slow heavy Shock Hammer from the 338-06 will have pretty stunning terminal results, without long runs after the shot. I think we need to get you set up with some slow heavies for your deprivation tags that are soon to be used! For the sake of science. What rifle candidate do you have?
Well, let's try this again. I lost my first post. Probably just as well, I was teasing Steve.
It went something like:
Uhhh, Steve,
I've shot 205SH and 213HH in my 338 Sherman. Velocities were just over 3000 and 2900+. They worked fine and the deer ran, but not too far (good thing).
I'm just spoiled and like bang-FLOP, which I generally get with the 85 gr zoomies in my 6.5 @4k+!
Lol. You haven't run a 225g Shock Hammer...
Do I think they are going to shut off the CNS on impact with a pure lung shot. Probably not. But you might be surprised.
By the way, I say probably not with every bullet combo. I think they will consistently shut them down faster than anything other than light Hammers you have used in the past.
Jun 26, 2022 at 2:48pmgltaylor said:
Well, let's try this again. I lost my first post. Probably just as well, I was teasing Steve.
It went something like:
Uhhh, Steve,
I've shot 205SH and 213HH in my 338 Sherman. Velocities were just over 3000 and 2900+. They worked fine and the deer ran, but not too far (good thing).
I'm just spoiled and like bang-FLOP, which I generally get with the 85 gr zoomies in my 6.5 @4k+!
Lol. You haven't run a 225g Shock Hammer...
Do I think they are going to shut off the CNS on impact with a pure lung shot. Probably not. But you might be surprised.
By the way, I say probably not with every bullet combo. I think they will consistently shut them down faster than anything other than light Hammers you have used in the past.
Don't get me wrong. The Hammers in 338 kill deer like nobody's business. No problem there.
I'm just spoiled, like I said. I'd rather have them collapse in their shadow. Here if a deer runs 50 or more yards, you're on your hands and knees in brush and briers. Not fun.
I prefer driving up to them and sliding them up the ramp into the side by side and going home. No muss, no looking, no briers, just easy peasy. I know. I'm rotten. Haven't shot my "normal" rifles in a couple of years. Don't want to. I'm totally corrupted and beyond repair Speed absolutely kills. Period.
Hi Harper,
Don't know cause I haven't fooled with them yet
Too much on my plate right now.
I'm betting I could probably hit close to 3200? I got about 3025 out of the 205 SH.
You ought to try one on a Texas Heart Shot and give us a report
Harper,
If the deer will cooperate, I've got 3 bullets to test this year:
The 120 Lever Hammer in 30 cal,
The 92gr Power Hammer in 6.5,
and tne 55gr HH in 6mm.
All will be at to well over 4000fps.
I want to see if I can replicate the damage my 85gr 6.5 zoomies do with the same bang-flop results. Last year I got 80% bang-flops. That was nice. The deer that ran last year went about 9 yds, 20yds and 41 yds the 41 yds was the biggest deer (and only buck) I killed. About 140 lbs.
Jun 26, 2022 at 8:01pmgltaylor said:
I'm betting I could probably hit close to 3200? I got about 3025 out of the 205 SH.
You ought to try one on a Texas Heart Shot and give us a report
I have some, still waiting on getting my bench back. I'm sure they'll do 3600 from my RUM. Not many deer stopping it even in Texas.
Jun 26, 2022 at 2:36pmles said:
Lou270 - I agree with everything you said. That was supposed to be my point. Hammer Bullets have changed the Paradigm in how bullets kill. A blunt shank with 4 pedals breaking off to cause massive damage is different than any other bullet. As I've read a lot of the posts here in Hammer Time, I've noticed that even with this design sometimes you get 5 exit holes! I've killed several big game animals with other mono copper bullets. They had nice mushrooms, they did the job. I only have recovered 2 of them, but the exit holes showed the evidence of a nice mushroom expansion. They were designed to imitate lead-core bullets. Hammer has innovated rather than imitated. I've killed big game with everything from a 22 cal to a 45 cal. I hope everyone is having fun developing and testing loads. If not, my grandpa insisted that the only worthwhile round for big game was the 30/06 with the 220 grain roundnose. I shot my first 3 whitetails with that round. I was visiting with my father-in-law last week who used to be my hunting partner. He insisted that my 6.5 was just too small for big game. He was a 7mm Rem Mag addict until he got to old to hunt. Whatever you hunt with, the object is to drop the blood pressure of the animal and shut the brain down as fast and you can.
There are three things I have learned about Hammer bullets so far. 1. They are very accurate! I really haven't had a bad group yet. 2. They are slippery for a mono - copper bullet. One of my grips with other copper bullets has been the friction. 3. They will deliver a beyond caliber kill zone because of their design to have 4 pedals deploy into the animal and a blunt shank to provide penetration.
What I have decided (my opinion). I jumped on the 124 grain 6.5 bullets for the 6.5 Creedmoor because of the S&B 120 grain copper bullet. As I have been shooting various weights of Hammer Bullets, I have decided that for the CM, the 124 grain are too heavy. Remember this is my opinion. I can't get my head around using the 85 grain on deer yet. I've got some 92 Power Hammers I'm going to shoot in the morning, and I'm leaning that direction. That said, I also have the 115 Power Hammers too. It seems like Hammer Bullets gives us almost too many choices! I've got some 109 grain Absolute loads to test as well. The truth is, I'm sure if I put the bullet where I'm supposed to, any of the Hammer bullets are going to do the job.
Use the 85g on deer. Don’t think twice about it.
My boy used the 70hh to put down two blacktail bucks from 50-300yds. Mv 3620fps. Both deer ran, neither deer bled, both deer were recovered within 100yds.
There’s more talk and pics in the threads, wild results with .243 70g hh and rl-16. And 2021 big game success thread.
Thanks Meatbuck for the advice. I've got a good accurate load with the 85 grain going 3574 in the Creedmoor. There are no signs of pressure and I could maybe squeeze a few more FPS. I'll have to go over to the thread you mentioned. I know I'm going light! It will be the 85g or the 92 Power Hammer. I got a nice group and
les,
Don't hesitate to use the 85gr HH. Look at some of the threads on "85gr zoomies". I consider them the gold standard in 6.5 bullets. Their performance and penetration is stellar!
Always curious, I'm currently testing the 92gr PHs. Testing on animals at just under 4k. Preliminary results are promising, but too early to form a firm opinion. Shouldn't be too much longer (if the deer cooperate).
GL - I'm looking forward to your results. I'll be using one or the other. Running the 92 through my ballistics calculator says it it good out to the distance I'm willing to pull the trigger. It looks like it will be the Creedmoor for deer and the 30/06 Ackley Improved for elk this year. I have to get out with the bow this weekend. Antelope season with my bow is less than a month away. Antelope is my wife's favorite game meat.
yep wrap your head around what’s needed for that to become a consistent outcome
Speed absolutely kills. Period.
the 41 yds was the biggest deer (and only buck) I killed. About 140 lbs.