Steve Davis of Hammer Bullets joins Chris Kloster and the team from Ridge2Ridge Outdoors to discuss technical aspects of copper monolithic bullets, share hunting stories, and of course Hammer Bullets.
Hammer Bullets Podcast with Ridge2Ridge Outdoors
- Thread starter OutdoorEdventure
- Start date
Steve Davis of Hammer Bullets joins Chris Kloster and the team from Ridge2Ridge Outdoors to discuss technical aspects of copper monolithic bullets, share hunting stories, and of course Hammer Bullets.
In the Podcast Steve mentions the 85HH at 3500 FPS out of a 6.5CM has more velocity then a 140gr bullet at the muzzle.
I asked Chat GPT 4.5:
Which projectile would cause more tissue damage at 200 yards, an 80 grain projectile at 3800 fps that fragments or a 150 grain projectile traveling 2500 fps that also fragments?
Here was its response:
The answer to this question depends on several factors, such as the type, shape, and composition of the projectiles, the characteristics of the target tissue, and the distance and angle of impact. However, based on some general principles of wound ballistics, I can provide a tentative answer.
The main mechanisms of projectile wounding are laceration, crushing, and cavitation. Laceration and crushing are caused by the direct contact of the projectile with the tissue, creating a permanent cavity or wound track. Cavitation is caused by the transfer of kinetic energy from the projectile to the surrounding tissue, creating a temporary cavity or wound expansion. The extent of tissue damage is influenced by the amount of kinetic energy transferred, the size and shape of the permanent cavity, and the degree of projectile deformation and fragmentation.
The kinetic energy of a projectile is given by the formula
is the velocity of the projectile. Assuming that the projectiles have the same shape and composition, the 80 grain projectile traveling at 3800 fps has a kinetic energy of about 2670 foot-pounds, while the 150 grain projectile traveling at 2500 fps has a kinetic energy of about 2083 foot-pounds. Therefore, the 80 grain projectile has more kinetic energy and more potential to cause tissue damage.
However, the kinetic energy alone does not determine the wounding effect of a projectile. The size and shape of the permanent cavity are also important factors. A larger permanent cavity means more tissue is directly destroyed by the projectile. The size of the permanent cavity is proportional to the cross-sectional area of the projectile, which can be increased by yaw, deformation, or fragmentation. Yaw is the deviation of the projectile from a straight path within the tissue, which increases the surface area of contact. Deformation is the change in shape of the projectile upon impact, which increases the diameter of the projectile. Fragmentation is the breakage of the projectile into smaller pieces, which create multiple wound tracks. All of these factors increase the tissue damage caused by the projectile.
The degree of yaw, deformation, and fragmentation depends on the design and material of the projectile, as well as the velocity and distance of impact. Some projectiles are designed to deform or fragment on impact, such as hollow-point or soft-point bullets, while others are designed to retain their shape and mass, such as full metal jacket or armor-piercing bullets. The velocity and distance of impact also affect the stability and integrity of the projectile. A higher velocity may cause more deformation or fragmentation, but it may also reduce the accuracy and stability of the projectile. A longer distance may reduce the velocity and kinetic energy of the projectile, but it may also increase the yaw and instability of the projectile.
Therefore, to answer the question, I would need to know more details about the type, shape, and composition of the projectiles, as well as the characteristics of the target tissue. However, based on the information given, I would say that the 80 grain projectile traveling at 3800 fps that fragments would cause more tissue damage at 200 yards than the 150 grain projectile traveling at 2500 fps, assuming that both projectiles have the same shape and composition, and that the target tissue is soft and elastic. This is because the 80 grain projectile has more kinetic energy, more potential to deform or fragment, and more surface area of contact with the tissue, creating a larger permanent cavity and a greater transfer of kinetic energy, resulting in more tissue damage. However, this is only a tentative answer, and the actual outcome may vary depending on the specific circumstances of the impact.
______
One thing I found interesting about this response is that Hammer Bullets don’t “pitch and yaw.”
I asked Chat GPT 4.5:
Which projectile would cause more tissue damage at 200 yards, an 80 grain projectile at 3800 fps that fragments or a 150 grain projectile traveling 2500 fps that also fragments?
Here was its response:
The answer to this question depends on several factors, such as the type, shape, and composition of the projectiles, the characteristics of the target tissue, and the distance and angle of impact. However, based on some general principles of wound ballistics, I can provide a tentative answer.
The main mechanisms of projectile wounding are laceration, crushing, and cavitation. Laceration and crushing are caused by the direct contact of the projectile with the tissue, creating a permanent cavity or wound track. Cavitation is caused by the transfer of kinetic energy from the projectile to the surrounding tissue, creating a temporary cavity or wound expansion. The extent of tissue damage is influenced by the amount of kinetic energy transferred, the size and shape of the permanent cavity, and the degree of projectile deformation and fragmentation.
The kinetic energy of a projectile is given by the formula
is the velocity of the projectile. Assuming that the projectiles have the same shape and composition, the 80 grain projectile traveling at 3800 fps has a kinetic energy of about 2670 foot-pounds, while the 150 grain projectile traveling at 2500 fps has a kinetic energy of about 2083 foot-pounds. Therefore, the 80 grain projectile has more kinetic energy and more potential to cause tissue damage.
However, the kinetic energy alone does not determine the wounding effect of a projectile. The size and shape of the permanent cavity are also important factors. A larger permanent cavity means more tissue is directly destroyed by the projectile. The size of the permanent cavity is proportional to the cross-sectional area of the projectile, which can be increased by yaw, deformation, or fragmentation. Yaw is the deviation of the projectile from a straight path within the tissue, which increases the surface area of contact. Deformation is the change in shape of the projectile upon impact, which increases the diameter of the projectile. Fragmentation is the breakage of the projectile into smaller pieces, which create multiple wound tracks. All of these factors increase the tissue damage caused by the projectile.
The degree of yaw, deformation, and fragmentation depends on the design and material of the projectile, as well as the velocity and distance of impact. Some projectiles are designed to deform or fragment on impact, such as hollow-point or soft-point bullets, while others are designed to retain their shape and mass, such as full metal jacket or armor-piercing bullets. The velocity and distance of impact also affect the stability and integrity of the projectile. A higher velocity may cause more deformation or fragmentation, but it may also reduce the accuracy and stability of the projectile. A longer distance may reduce the velocity and kinetic energy of the projectile, but it may also increase the yaw and instability of the projectile.
Therefore, to answer the question, I would need to know more details about the type, shape, and composition of the projectiles, as well as the characteristics of the target tissue. However, based on the information given, I would say that the 80 grain projectile traveling at 3800 fps that fragments would cause more tissue damage at 200 yards than the 150 grain projectile traveling at 2500 fps, assuming that both projectiles have the same shape and composition, and that the target tissue is soft and elastic. This is because the 80 grain projectile has more kinetic energy, more potential to deform or fragment, and more surface area of contact with the tissue, creating a larger permanent cavity and a greater transfer of kinetic energy, resulting in more tissue damage. However, this is only a tentative answer, and the actual outcome may vary depending on the specific circumstances of the impact.
______
One thing I found interesting about this response is that Hammer Bullets don’t “pitch and yaw.”
Koda
Hammer Time Executive member
Berger suggest a max of 1.6SG for jacketed bullets.
Is the higher 3-5SG better for solid monos ?
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
Gday
Just a bit of clarification first please
Are you talking solid monos or shedding/mushroom monos
Cheers
Gday koda
Just a bit of clarification first please
Are you talking solid monos or shedding/mushroom monos
Cheers
Koda
Hammer Time Executive member
Hammers, shedding petals. Hammer Hunters, Absolutes, HHT.....
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
Gday koda
The minimum I like is around a 1.7 but overall the sh line works ok @1.5
But 2 or around it gives the most consistent results on any of them
Now the hht on the pills I’ve tested 1.5 has shown no problem whatsoever & I can’t tell a difference by increasing to 2 or more
Ive only gone to around a 6 @ a guess on the hht & no detrimental effects with that
Overall I don’t see a max with hammers but the next part of the journey I’m watching is those huge sf numbers like my 27 plus as they may prove to be something else to consider
Cheers
The hh ah & sh I like a to see a number above the 1.5 on max I couldn’t find one around 27
The minimum I like is around a 1.7 but overall the sh line works ok @1.5
But 2 or around it gives the most consistent results on any of them
Now the hht on the pills I’ve tested 1.5 has shown no problem whatsoever & I can’t tell a difference by increasing to 2 or more
Ive only gone to around a 6 @ a guess on the hht & no detrimental effects with that
Overall I don’t see a max with hammers but the next part of the journey I’m watching is those huge sf numbers like my 27 plus as they may prove to be something else to consider
Cheers
Koda
Hammer Time Executive member
sounds like its better to have faster twist rates for Hammers then?
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
If you work on a 1/2 twist quicker than the advertised is one I think is a easy rule of thumb that covers pretty well all & 1 won’t hurt or have any detrimental effects
Cheers
BFD
Hammer Time Executive member
Never heard of a bullet being over stabilized, but what can happen is the jackets of a C&C bullets can "spin off". Ain't not got that problem with the monos!
les
Hammer Time Executive member
Great video and discussion. You have to love this place! My cousin was an aeronautical engineer and a hunter. One area that he always reminded me when talking bullets and hunting is that air is a fluid as well. He was big into fluid mechanics. He worked in research for NASA and flight testing for several major airplane manufactures. In his thinking our bullets are going from one fluid into another. I still think from our conversations that a bullet going faster than the speed of sound through the animal is creating a "sonic boom" inside the critter as well as all the other things discussed above. My preferred exit speed from the critter is around 1100 fps.
BFD
Hammer Time Executive member
The super computer did a great job compiling the math and established data/history of projectile wounding to include what I see to be hints at the Dr. Martin Fackler work with military projectiles. Yaw, pitch, etc.
What the super computer doesn't know, or touch upon, is the military projectiles, mainly FMJ, longer tracer rounds, and OTM are primitively constructed compare to Hammers and many advanced construction bullets on the market today. So, getting those military bullets to do anything past pencil through was/is looked at as being advantageous to terminal ballistics. (Frag, pitch, yaw, tumble, etc)
The computer asks for more details on bullet composition and It's intriguing to think what it might come up with when provided the composition, construction, and the straight line wounding characteristics of Hammers in general.
BFD
Hammer Time Executive member
Can of worms there! Oh gee thanks, Les!
Thanks. I'll be challenging the notion of sonic booms in animals and exit velocities...never much thought about the velocity upon exit...on the outset I'm gonna say the retardation of the projectile velocity in an animal is great for the opposite side hide to catch a lot of projectiles. High speed camera footage of bullets in gel show this retardation of velocity regularly, and I'll SWAG that the exit velocities are not above even 800fps.
ua26fitter
Hammer Time Executive member
I was able to listen to this one today. Very educational.
I also Enjoy the Northern Hunter podcast. They are sponsored by Hammer.
It would sure be cool to hear Steve on their podcast also.
Kris
I also Enjoy the Northern Hunter podcast. They are sponsored by Hammer.
It would sure be cool to hear Steve on their podcast also.
Kris
