(Originally posted 9/4/2020)
Steve Davis
Administrator
hammerbullets.com/product/284-cal-155g-absolute-hammer/
Here is the 1st of many Absolute Hammers to come. We will be designing and producing these from .172 cal all the way up. Introduction of bullets will be in the most popular calibers and common twist rates and working our way into the less common stuff. We will base our design work based on sales of our current line.
We set out to design this bullet to address the problem that we see with bullets of tight bore specifications that engraver further out onto the ogive resulting in poor bc performance. We came up with an ogive design that does not allow any engraving forward of the shoulder of the bullet. Just before the ogive reaches bore dia we put in a reverse PDR going into the first PDR drive band. For those that don't know PDR is Parabolic Drag Reduction, this is what we patented. Now there will be no difference from rifle to rifle in how much they distort the nose of the bullet. The only thing that can change is the configuration of engraving on the baring surface. So with this design you will likely not be able to reach the lands. Nor will you base to ogive measuring tools work as you are used to. They will set on the shoulder of the bullet.
We knew when we started the 1st prototype design that we would be seeing a reduction is engraving pressure. Boy were we surprised! We are getting 3320 fps with this 155g Absolute Hammer in our 27" 280ai with very comfortable pressure. 2950 fps is the highest vel that Hodgdon shows with a 150g bullet and the fastest that Nosler shows for a 150g is 3107. The highest vel they show for a 160g bullet is 2872 fps Hodgdon and 3045 fps Nosler. They are getting their vel using H1000 and 4831 burn rate powders. We were not able to find any pressure until we dropped down to rl16 powder. We have not experimented with many powders as we were just after accuracy and ballistic information. We are running about 10g more powder at this burn rate than Hodgdon data shows for a similar burn rate and bullet weight.
So to give you an idea, the Absolute Hammer will gain enough vel to make a 30-06 run sxs with a 300wm. Hodgdon data shows a 30-06 running a 180g bullet at 2850 fps on the top end and the 300wm running just shy of 3050 for a 180g bullet. Assuming we see the same increase in vel with the 30-06 as we see with the 280ai, this is truly a game changer. Magnum plus velocities from large rifle cartridges and ultramag plus velocities from magnum cartridges. Trust me we will be testing big magnums very soon. I am pretty sure we will be pushing the 3600 fps mark with a 200g bullet in the Remington Ultramag. I will update on this asap.
Here is a pic, let me know what you think.
mcd
Senior Member
Very interesting, Steve! Cudos to you and Brian.
farleg
Platinum Member
Absolute brilliant
Can’t wait till it gets out in the field
Cheers Steve & Brian
Steve Davis
Administrator
The bc crowd at LRH should start yelling from the 5 cent seats soon. Got one that started. It is going to be fun explaining that an extra 300fps is the same as a very big increase in bc.
farleg
Platinum Member
I can’t wait
hearing the rumble in the jungle from here already
carsyn22
Senior Member
nice! I'm looking forward to a fast 300 wm bullet for a 10" twist
bc sportsman
Full Member
Great news Steve!
I'll add my wish list for 30 cal bullets for 1:10 and 1:12 twists for those of use who hunt in the bitter cold at relatvely low altitude.
warrenoliver
New Member
Exciting news! I am preparing for the fall elk hunt. Thought I was all set with the 146 hammer hunter over 61.9 gr H4831SC in my .280AI for a muzzle velocity of 3038 fps. I'm anxious to try the .284 AH at my local range at 600 yards.
What powder load do you suggest that I start with?
Thanks for working on this.
Steve Davis
Administrator
What twist is your barrel? This Absolute Hammer needs a min of 8.5"
schw15
New Member
Just bought the 143 hammer hunters for the 28 nosler but wow what would the 155 absolute run and what powder? That would be impressive
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I Love This Place
warrenoliver
New Member
Darn! 9.5
beeman
Senior Member
When is the expected release date? I’m in Canada and have been waiting to place a order till the AH were ready.
Steve Davis
Administrator
I am not sure what powder. We have typically been running the N570 in the 28n. I am sure that it will be too slow for the Absolute Hammer. N565 or N555 I'm thinking one of these might be the bet. Still get the magic of the Viht double base vel. If I am correct it should run at about 3650 fps.
Steve Davis
Administrator
The 155g 7mm is the 1st Absolute to be ready to order. We will be adding them to the line as fast as we can starting with the most popular calibers and twist rates. Then just expand out from there until we have most everything covered that the Hammer Hunter line has.
schw15
New Member
That would be pretty impressive for a 155 faster than the 143. But faster powders are required. Awesome stuff glad you guys keep finding new ways. That would be pretty sweet in a target bullet with a higher bc and going that fast
Steve Davis
Administrator
Steve,
What load were you running with the 155 Absolute Hammer? I’m also running a 27” 280 AI.
Our test load for the 155AH was with Peterson brass and 60g rl16. I have been leery to post this because it is of the charts. This load should never be considered with any other bullet. Of course back off a few g and work up. This was the 1st time we have used the Peterson brass in 280ai. It is tough brass compared to nosler.
joliver
Full Member
WHOA!!!!! This is awesome!!!! shesh! I just ordered 143 HH's oh well good thing i only got 50 I think. meh we only live once. I haven't even really load developed the 143s yet. I'll try 50 of these for my 28. Weather is cooling off. You talked me into it Steve.
(NOTE: THIS POST IS SOMEWHAT CONDENSED. MANY BULLETS AND MUCH DATA HAS BEEN ADDED/GATHERED SINCE THE ABSOUTES WERE ORIGINALLY ANNOUNCED)
Steve Davis
Administrator
Steve,
Have you been able to compare the same loads with the new bullet vs old? How much back to the drawing board will I need to do with my loads? Since Velocity is so high on these new guys I am a bit curious where I should start once I do start loading up.
I have a really sweet load for my 124 HH's Do I take 2 gn's off and start up again?
It will be a whole new work up. These bullets will be like working a load for a wildcat cartridge. If you start with the powder you are using and see how it works then you can make a determination if you need to go to a faster powder and where to start with it.
How do these perform with standard for caliber barrel twist rates?
They will be fine. We will design bullets for various twist rates in each caliber. The Absolute Hammers will be a bit lighter for caliber in each twist rate than the Hammer Hunters because we took a little meat out of the nose.
(MUCH DISCUSSION ON LOADS AND POWDER BURN RATES. ALSO CHANGING PRIMERS TO GET BETTER ES/SD IN LOADS. ABSOLUTES REQUIRE FASTER BURN RATE POWDERS THAN TRADITIONAL DESIGN/WEIGHT BULLETS)
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday 300 rum how was the beer & probably the most important question what brand lol
I’m back from the girls (his cows) & few already asked & answered thanks to all
Still got a couple though ( surprise)
1/ Do you see the difference in the primers often , Im mainly a federal & Remington guy with very good es on nearly all my loads
2/ Why wouldn’t you try a different powder to see if there is more ( my thoughts as I like to no the line )
3/ do you see a major problem with the chambering in the rbh ( watching this closely for future reference for myself ) time will tell no doubt
Think that’s it for now
Overall the saum has just shown us part of the equation with the absolute & how that equation has changed to the norm thanks for your time very appreciated
Now just get out & hammer something even a squirrel 🐿 would do
Cheers
mbruce
Platinum Member
farleg - here’s some excellent info on primers. Primers and their seating depth affect all cartridges...brands’ burn intensity, duration, and timing are all different
Full article- www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=1471
Accurate Shooter summary - bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/06/lr-primer-types-tested-for-velocity-essd-group-size-and-more/
Here’s a cool And “primer flame” accurate video. At 1:32 starts the primer sequence:
Now you’re ready to move on to “bushing the firing pin”
rh300um
Platinum Member
Ok
Just got back home
Spotted 17 bulls this morning, 2 are definitely shooters. Screaming, mud covered and the cows are HOT!!
Back to business here.
After the elk hit the timber to bed down it was time to shoot.
Drove to a area away from were the elk are and shot.
Out to 1070 yards. I will say this. The BC is much better than advertised!
I gave Steve my results and he’s going to run the numbers to see if he matches me on my numbers.
Stay tuned!
joliver
Full Member
86gr, 9gr over max charge for a 150gr bullet in the nosler book. Exactly 25fps faster than max 150gr projectile for speed listed in the nosler book
all shots fired today incase someone see something I don’t. left to right is 81 top is 86gr
rh300um
Platinum Member
I’d keep going up. No primer issues. No ejector marks (Hornady brass =soft).
2 things to pay attention to.
Neck tension! Make sure you anneal the brass! Every time!
Shoulder bump! Make sure it’s no more then .002 Always!
Oh! 3 make sure you’re primers are always seated. ALL the way!
farleg
Platinum Member
JOLIVER - So I need an adult.
First off is it 81 degrees here in NC and the humidity is very high today. That being said here are the results.
shot one is 81gr, shot two is 83gr, shot 3 is 85gr slightly not smooth bolt lift. (But my gun does that occasionally even with low powered rounds, no other signs) proceeded to 86gr shot stiff bolt lift and ejector marks. So Im scared to move on without superior intelligence.
Gouping was amazing. All shots of variable loads were all within an inch group.
IMR-7828 (none sc) OAL is 3.56, Hornady once fired brass, CCI250 primers. I’ll post pictures of the brass when I get home.
farleg -
Gday joliver & others
I thought it might have been better to quote this post as gives a bit more to go through than just the pics although they are great to see & to me I’m with rh300um keep going ( maybe .5 gr ea time ) & eagle eye ( mcd ) well I need to say no more than well picked up
the biggest thing unanswered to me is bolt lift even on low powered rounds
now im not in the league of what causes this or what’s happening but my question is did your 86 gr show more or around the same as the low power loads when that occurs
dont no if I’m barking up the wrong tree ? Others will no if this is relivent or not & maybe the other recommendation will fix this ?
cheers
joliver
Full Member
It is very relevant. I think RH300UM is touching on this to make sure brass is prepped better. The shoulder bump to .002 would prevent this probably. Good catch on the other two ejector marks too. I didn’t notice that. That’s exactly why I posted that. So plan for today is to inspect my brass the brass of the upper loads and clean the gun out and fire 87 and see what happens! I’ll watch the primers closer for pressure. Thanks gents
mcd
Senior Member
Joliver,
While I completely agree with rh300um on the crucial steps, I scrolled up and now remember you were shooting once fired brass, and 85 grains gave light bolt lift, and 86 grains gave substantial bolt lift. Personally I wouldn’t go higher after seeing that unless you’re certain you had something out of sorts. Your primers, while progressively looking flatter, which is completely normal as you climb in pressure appear to be starting to crater into the firing pin on the higher pressure loads. Look at the little burr developing at that spot. It appears to go halfway around, but that could be the camera too. While I just posted something not long ago that “brass lies”, I have a pressure system allowing me to validate that. In that same thread, I also said I wouldn’t shoot a load that gave tight bolt lift, even if it were within pressure limits. I would add, at least as importantly, I wouldn’t shoot a load that the primer was starting to compromise it’s seal. Flattening is one thing, blowing open is quite another.
rh300um
Platinum Member
Shot on paper this morning
1002 yards
7saum with 155 AH @ 3348 fps Es of 6
Calm. No wind.
47 degrees
70% humidity
30.04 AP
Smokey/Haze made it interesting
Prone from bipod with rear bag
.272 for BC today
Theses are my final 3 shots this morning
Shot 7 rounds at rocks that were 1/2 to 3/4 moa from 925 to 1043 yards to dial it in.
That’s a .4 moa group at 1k!
Probably couldn’t do that again. Especially from a light hunting rifle
joliver
Full Member
Yep well MCD you just validated what I discovered. Went up to 90grs and at that charge the primer removed its self from the brass. Speed was 3597 but was obviously crazy over pressure. That concludes my testing with this powder. So with that being said if I go to a faster burning powder will I see pressure sooner? I’ve got to pull bullets but I am going to shoot 143 HH behind RL-33 while I’m out here.
mcd
Senior Member
I’d try Re-26 if you have some. I think I mentioned that before, can’t remember. Make sure you crimp the AH in place if you can. Shot start will be much better. You need to load up that double based powder in Re-26 so that the back side comes in earlier than later. Should do a bit better than IMR 7828SSC, but I do have to say I’m surprised it didn’t do you better.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday joliver
by any chance did you take some pics of the next series of shots on your way to 90 gr
cheers
joliver
Full Member
I will take some pictures when i get home from work this morning. The ejector marks were slightly more pronounced. I was probably very foolish to continue shooting the larger charge weights. but did go up progressively. I had to bang the 90gr out with a cleaning rod as it didn't eject that piece of brass probably won't hold a primer securely enough to shoot again. Lesson learned, very important lesson was learned today. Now on to RL-26
riceman
Global Moderator
Gday riceman
Howz your data going ( I’m not sure on our time differences)
Curious not pushy
Cheers
Just couldn't get out yesterday. Too many things to do, trying to finish projects around the house before rice harvest. We'll be starting in 3 days. That will be it for testing at that point. 7 days a week for 5 to 6 weeks.
I did load up rl 26 and staball 6.5, I'll take it to work if I have a opening I'll try..
Somehow I found a little time to shoot this morning?
Rl 26
67 3086
68 3124
69 3151
70 3208
71 3255
72 3294 heavy bolt lift, catering primer
Staball 6.5
61 2989
62 3028
63 3026
64 3107
65 3124
66 3132
67 3155 no pressure yet
joliver
Full Member
picture as requested.
imr 7828
87 Gr= 3379
88 gr= 3476
89gr = 3597
every load had an ejector Mark last one had to be removed from breech with cleaning rod.
from here researching a starting point for N565 and on the waiting list on 4 websites for RL-26
joliver
Full Member
Riceman, how much space do you have left with the sta ball 6.5!? Looks promising!
riceman
Global Moderator
Joliver, Lots of room on staball 6.5
Mcd, seems 3200 is where it tops out, as for now. Not a bad thing for a 155 gn bullet. Testing for accuracy is later.
(TYPICAL EXCHANGE OF QUESTIONS)
farleg said:
mcd Avatar
Sep 14, 2020 at 11:08am mcd said:
Assuming good accuracy at 3200 FPS, looks like you may have a good combo. I had to scroll up to remember what you had, and I noticed you crimped, which is a good thing.
Gday mcd
do you think this rifle cartridge projectile combo is topped out around the 3200 mark or only with those powders
cheers
Hard to say. So many variables. Normally, I’d think Re-26 is a bit too fast for a 7 Mag with a 155 gr bullet, so I’d assume slower powders would beat it traditionally. However, since this bullet demands a much faster powder, if it’s close to case fill, I don’t think there’s anything that will be faster. If there is, it wouldn’t be by much.
mcd
Senior Member
Got it with r26 but isn’t the stabil 6,5 faster again & riceman said still space left
would you stop there or go to faster powders ?
cheers
Re-26 is far faster than most think. I’ve proven it with the Pressure Trace too, as Re-23, which I also think is faster than its designation is way slower than 26, volume case fill (not weight) compared to pressure. I would not think Stabil 6.5 will produce a faster velocity in this particular instance, but I know it’s a screamer in the 4350 burn range. If I were to try a 4350 in this particular case, I’d go with Accurate 4350 or N555, both at the slowest end of the 4350 powders. Both are also excellent powders. The Accurate 4350 is far underrated. Great powder.
mcd
Senior Member
Having said that, I’d look at the 4831 burn range first over the 4350 range. Nonetheless, if the Re-26 combo shoots well, I wouldn’t even do anything else. Once Re-26 is above 95% case fill, it’s hard to beat on velocity. I’ve never experienced poor accuracy with it too. The Swiss know what they’re doing. Remember, it and Re-17 come from the same Swiss plant. Most of the other Reloder powders are from Sweden.
farleg
Platinum Member
Thanks for that & your knowledge
limited over here with powders & knowledge
cant get a lot of those powders here so how do you see h4350 ior r16 n the mix of things
cheers
mcd
Senior Member
Ha, ha. Just to answer more directly to your question, both of those are in the middle of the 4350 burn range. Both are also great powders. Every situation is different, but in my particular testing, H4350 is almost exactly as fast as Re-16 for the pressure put out. Most believe Re-16 to be 100 FPS faster, and I’m not seeing it yet. I know you have an equivalent for H4831SC (or should I say the original, lol) over there, and that’s what I’d reach for first. There isn’t a more stable powder than H4831SC too. It’s rock solid.
mcd
Senior Member
N565 is a good one as well. In the end, don’t “expect” what you “hope” for. Observe the signs carefully, and don’t continue beyond when signs are present. The critical signs are the primer cratering around the firing pin and the sticky bolt lift. The ejector mark is a traditional earlier sign, but in my case specifically, it is worthless. I’m guessing my bolt face has a pronounced transition there instead of a smooth radius and just imprints everything it touches. That doesn’t mean yours does though, so that still can be an early indicator. Only you will know. They can be hard to spot, surprisingly. The best thing is to take a picture and zoom in.
mbruce
Platinum Member
I use a $11 Bausch & Lomb 10x Loupe
joliver - trash brass with loose primer pockets. loose primer pockets won't shoot well and the gas cuts your bolt face...then eventually escapes somewhere not designed, doing bad things.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I'm just over here waiting on 25 and 30 Cal's
hammerbullets.boards.net
rh300um
Platinum Member
I retested the primers in the 7saum this morning.
I prefer to duplicate Most tests at least 3 times with the same results before I trust the results. This is one example of of duplication and it’s importance in load developments.
Ive shot 50 of the Absolute Hammers now testing and testing again. One more test at long range (1k) and I will have the needed information to hunt with this season.
fotis
New Member
Man those 6.5 AH should be doing 3800 fps from my 6.5 Bee.
It already does 3550 with the 127 LRX.
The 131 hammers are cool too!
rh300um
Platinum Member
It’s 80 degrees here now so I tested the 155 AH load in the heat. Still accurate and acceptable velocities and Es.
Steve Davis
Administrator
I'm about to head into the shop to get the lathe running on a new program. Got a few minutes so I'll quickly give some shooting results from the weekend. Did a bunch of shooting over the two days. The interesting thing that we found was that once we reached cartridges running North of 80g of powder the vel increase with the Absolutes started to become less. When we reached cartridges pushing 100g of powder we stopped seeing a vel increase. Small sample but I think there is a point of diminishing returns as the cartridges get very big. Below this level we are seeing huge vel increases and still the very easy Hammer accuracy.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Unlike the normal and smaller cases, the big boys were able to hit pressure with "normal" powders. I will be interested to hear how the 28 nosler runs.
We spent quite a bit of time with the 178g AH this last weekend. In 3006 we ran it up to 3100 fps. Then in 300wm ran to 3440 fps. The 300 rum ran to 3520 fps. We then ran a 262g AH in the 338 lap imp. It hit pressure at the same vel that I run the 260 HH. Same result in the 338 Fat Girl. More testing to come. Not sure if it is the size of the case or the weight of the bullet. I have good data for three 213g HH in my 338 lap imp. We will make a 210g AH for comparison.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I'm not speaking for Steve in any capacity but I know he's covered up at the moment, with the AH you wont be able measure to the lands like you can with conventional bullet as you wont have a full bullet diameter until you get to the baring bands so that will be the first thing to contact the lands, as far as powder what I have seen so far is if your loading a 180gr bullet look at the 150-165gr powder choices 150/130, 130/100 and so on, once again I'm not speaking for Steve in any way shape or form, this is just what i have gathered so far and is just a suggestion, Welcome from Indiana, I hope this helps you some
Steve Davis
Administrator
I finally got caught up enough to spend some time catching up on the thread.
So last weekend we did two days of loading and shooting the Absolutes. Had some great results and some that were a little puzzling.
What we are doing to figure out a load is start with a known powder for the bullet weight. Work that combo up as far as possible and glean from that data where to go next. Best to start with a combo that you can't get into trouble with.
1st rifle we worked with was a Ruger American 6.5 Creed. This rifle has always been slow, but shoots well. I think we figured out why it is slow. Appears that the chamber is big and rough. Previous load with the 124g HH was 40g Varget at 2920 fps. So we started there and went up to 43g and a vel of 3062 fps. This was showing stiff extraction and ejector mark. Again I think this is due to a poor chamber. I think we should see another 100 fps. We then tried 6.5 staball, blc2, tac, cfe223 and 8208xbr. They all got to basically the same place. This is when we started mic'ing the brass and seeing that it is all expanding more than it should. Also the fired brass is all rough from marks in the chamber. Felt like we kinda wasted our time on this one.
We then went to our 6.5-05 ai 28" barrel. This rifle is built on an old Ruger Mauser style action. Here we did what I tell everyone not to do and went straight to a powder that we thought would be good. We are using Peterson 270 win brass trimmed and fire formed. We went to H100V and started at 55g and a vel of 3422 fps worked up to 57g where we got an extractor mark and a cratered primer and a vel of 3573 fps. The primer pocket on the Peterson brass was still tight. I would consider this a very max load, brass good for about 3 firings.
Now we went to my 280ai 22" 8" twist Proof barrel. My previous load for this rifle was the 143g HH at 3126fps with rl23. We decided to start with H100v and work up. Started low at 56g, 1g under a max load from Hodgdon for a 130g bullet. We worked this load up in 1g increments with very nice 40 fps per g increases. We took it up to 64g and a vel of 3427 fps. At this mark the old Win model 70 big firing pin hole was giving too big of a crater. Backed it down to 63g and a comfortable 3387 fps shooting nearly one hole at 200y. Will be sending the bolt in to get it bushed next week after I fire the 140g AH at 1000y to check bc.
Now we took on the 30 cals with the 178g AH. 1st the 30-06 in a factory Rem Long Range 26" barrel. Loaded at 3.56" oal we started with H100v with this one too. Started with Win brass and wlrm primer and 54g. This is one g over the start load for 180g in the Hodgdon data. Took this up to 60g and a vel of 3036 with a slight leak around the primer. We then switched to Lapua brass with wlrm primer and went up to 62g with a pimer leak. Swithed to f215m primer and lost the leaky primer. Backed it down a g and went with 61g and a vel of 3080 and shooting 7/8" at 200y.
Went to the Browning Hell's Canyon 300 rum from here. Started with a known load for the 181g HH at 95g. I will add that the long nose of the 178g could not mag feed in the short magazine. We had to single feed at an oal of 3.790". Started with 95g rl26 and took it up to 97g and a vel of 3515 fps. This showed an extractor mark on the adg brass. Tried n565 and retumbo with basically the same result. So in the rum size cartirdge we did not see the need for faster powder but did see about 120 fps gain over the 181g HH. It seems at this point that the big capacity cartridges are not showing as much gain in vel as the normal and standard magnum cartridges.
Then ran a 262g .338 AH in my 338 Lap imp. We found this cartridge with 100g plus to finish out at the same vel as I had previously ran the 260g HH. More testing to be done here but right now looks like once we get into cartridges approaching 100g powder capacity that we may have reached the end of the vel advantage of the Absolute. More testing needs to be done here. The Absolute still has what it was originally designed for, no engraving on the nose of the bullet messing up the bc from rifle to rifle.
Hopefully we will have some time to shoot some more this weekend. Hope this is helpful.
I still want everyone to start with powders that are known for the weight of the bullet and start working from there. Always better to start with stuff that you can't get in trouble with than to jump into something that you think will be good on a whim. Collect data and determine where to go from there.
farleg
Platinum Member
bc sportsman said:
Not based on experience, just my very sharp analytical mind...LOL...
Im just offering these thoughts and wild assed guesses (WAG) to stimulate some insight from those of u with actual experience using Hammers on animals.
On the topic of the amount of bullet shank after fragmentation, and the size of the fragments, my belief is that at a minimum, the shank should have enough momentum to penetrate through the shoulder to the far side of the target animal's vitals. The major fragments should be able to penetrate well into the vital organ cavity. If the bullet can do that then I believe it will perform well on pretty well any shot.
So, the variables are the mass of the bones to be penetrated, the organ (lung, heart) cavity width, the momentum of the shank as well as the 2 - 4 major fragments.
Assuming a tough but not dangerous animal, elk or ??, Im conjecturing that a minimum 70-100 gr shank and 2-4 fragments that are 20 gr plus in size (for decent momentum). Impact velocity should not be less than what Steve has set. I belueve that is either 1600 or 1800 fps.
So, thise who know better than me please chime in. No offence taken if Im shown to be way off base with my WAG!
Gday bc Love your VSAM
you’ve opened a can of worms in more than one way
Is it fishing season over there Lol I’m gone hook line & sinker
I’ll put my WAG forward With my OPT ( own personal thoughts )
no offence taken with others opt or opb ( own personal beliefs)
ok I’m in a stupid mood & to much time on my hands& haven’t even had a drink
so after dealing with the hammers on animals & lots of angles I’m coming to the conclusion Of the following
I don’t like working oN a chest cavity width broadside ( never have )
penertration of shank :
OPT you need a shank that can reach the vitals from most angles Roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of the animal ( DG I’ll leave out )
this does 2 main things Pretty well guarantees a exit On most shots
I love blood trail & no matter how careful we are on shot placement we are dealing with animals that move especially true on long range as I’m buggered if every animal stays still for the shot & it can go from broadside to hard quartering very quickly
the last is if our shot isn’t the best first your usually dealing with a fleeing animal & a lot of them give you a rear view or very hard quarter away so my OPT is if it does happen I can get to the vitals nearly every time as my OPB is we deserve to dispatch the animal as quick as possible
I think as a caliber your 70/100 gr would cover .270 to 30 cal on most animals in most ranges
longrange my OPT is you need to increase this
petal size : your 20 gr I’ve only recovered one I think that big 21.9 gr ( actually it was found on the ground in that video Steve posted For me ) I’ve got others @ my other home away from home Just can’t weigh them @ the moment
The petals I’ve recovered have showed a consistent pattern that being from 1.2 to 10.3 Gr very shallow penetration no more than 12 in most around 6/8 Not including the 1.2
11.5 to 17.6 gr penetration is Around 14/16 in & few @18/20 In With the majority I haven’t a clue as they are exiting
Your 20 gr petal does it need to be that big
hmmm yes on some animals yes has a lot of merit
deer species upto say mulies ?
id drop down in weight & get velocity up from the norm & in ranges that suite
so my conclusion is I don’t care what angle the shot is I’m going to get through to the vitals not only with shank but most of the petals will reach aswell on the majority of shots
I want as many irons in the fire as possible
I think you’ve landed this fish for now & looking forward to who else takes the bait & runs with it
man just a thought 100 gr from my rum
I’ll work on the 151ah first
love this place & you guys
cheers
(BOY, HAVE WE COME A LONG WAY SINCE THESE THREADS WERE WRITTEN!!! - editor's comments)
bc sportsman
Full Member
Hi harperc, your question about terminal performance comparison between 200 gr bullet with 120 gr shank and larger petals vs a faster moving 150 gr bullet with 120 gr shank and smaller petals is interesting.
I have no idea which would be more effective but am leaning towards favouring the faster bullet.
farleg
Platinum Member
bc sportsman said:
Hi Farleg, ur experience with fragments from about 11 to 17 gr penetrating 16 - 18" seems to indicate to me that my WAG of minimum 20 gr petals for good penetration into vitals may have been too high and that 10 gr plus might be a more realistic for good penetration into vitals.
Thanks for the info!
.gday bc
What the petals have shown me is how effective they are in killing
& with the shank that goes straight & the form it has the petals are like a tumbling bullet in so many ways We just don’t no where they will end up
this is good to me as the shank will kill if we do our part with good placement but if things go the wrong way it may well be that one petal that is the saviour of the day
your 10 gr makes sense to me & if I look @ from a caliber perspective ( 30 cal or less & upto around the 400/500 Mark )
a
90 gr 25 cal that leaves around 50 gr shank @ I’m more than happy with that on paper to get through to vitals from most angles imo
others who shoot this caliber would no more real world data if this is so So I’m going to test this theory
where all this becomes a little sketchy is when you bring speed into the mix as there is more going on than we can see imo once again but you can’t not see the results as it’s just incredible how efficient killers they become when you get into hyper velocities
told you you’ve got me hook line & sinker I’ve only got 3&1/2hrs sleep& woke up ticking ( now I’m getting told to go to bed )
it’s all cool in honesty my body clock hasn’t adjusted from a mixed up work schedule but I was ticking
love this place
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday all
got my first taste of the absolute
151in 30 cal
excuse the note pic as I put this in my reloading data File
Overview:300 rum 96.6 gr of h4350 for 3808 FPS
please don’t duplicate this load unless working up I started with 92 gr h4350 & I would start a little lower as I’ve got extensive history with this rifle with 125/130/140&150 projectiles as well as heavier
now I just have to hammer something with them or should I say launch
overall I got around 200 FPS gain over other 150 gr projectiles in this rifle only difference being the brass type / primers
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Here’s the top speed
Harperc it will be interesting to see if I can replicate in a couple other rums a fierce & blaser
yes it’s something for him to definitely Consider & it’s going to be awesome on animals I’m sure It launches birds on the dam better than the 375 rum & that was from 219 mtrs
but all in all this is one hell of a combo
I still have to do my temp tests then I’ll be happy with this part
cheers
On a side note
when I opened the package today the invoice from Steve had a message
“ GET THEM CRANKING “
Hmmmm ok I believe I’ve just started
well all I’ll say is can’t wait to get what I’ve been hanging out for
for which I believe the 30 cal swift is not far away
Thanks Steve / Brian & everyone this taseegian is a happy camper
ButterBean
Platinum Member
That's freaking Screaming, Nothing carries that home
Oh by the way, I Love This Place
Steve Davis
Administrator
Over the last year or so we have made the hollow point deeper on quite a few of the bullets. When we 1st started we really had no consideration for the job of the petals. The only thing that mattered to us was the form of the retained shank. We have learned that we can't ignore the better terminal performance when the shed petals get bigger. Good example is the .338 213g Hammer Hunter. It had poor performance on game until we made the HP significantly deeper. Now they weigh 210g but kill like they should. That said the big bore Shock Hammers have been very successful on dangerous game in Africa.
I see in the near future the Dead Blow Hammer Line mirroring the HH and AH line for sure and pending farleg testing on game possibly in the Shock Hammers as well. We are going to have too many bullets!!!
riceman
Global Moderator
The crimp helps with a consistent start for these bullets. Hammers do not take alot to get them going, because of the baring surfaces are only on the ridges. Even less with the absolute bullets.
Check out Butterbean's thread on "how and why I use a lee factory crimp" in search bar or just scroll back some. He explains it better than I can.
I crimp everything 223 thru 300wby
Just type in "crimp" in search bar
hope this helps Alan
Steve Davis
Administrator
We just loaded a couple of Browning 308's. We tried half a dozen powders and the clear winner was Ramshot Tac. Vel was 3120 fps. This was with Lapua brass.
bojo34
Full Member
Can someone with experience loading the absolutes please pass along how they determined a starting COL? I generally use the Hornady OAL guage to find the lands for any particular bullet then play with different seating depths off the lands......don't believe this will work given the ogive of the absolutes.
Steve Davis
Administrator
I do it old school. Let the mag dictate the longest and start there or if I can get to the lands I sneak up on them and then back off 20 thou and start there. We have not found the Absolutes to be any more picky about the jump than the other Hammer lines.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday bojo34
old school here along with Steve but with a twist from left field
jump dosent concern me as a couple guys no I’ve got some really EXTREME jump the reason is simple to me as it’s in the field where potential problems can exist & this will not apply to the majority of shooters but to the few look outside of the square guys like me who shoot really light for caliber projectiles it’s more important to get good case neck grip on the projectile than worry about chasing the lands
JM2CW
cheers
rh300um
Platinum Member
I noticed there's no absolutes in 338. Is there a reason for this?
The 338 AH were tested. Results were no gain in velocity over the HH.
So it was not produced
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Z987k,
In testing, it was found that Absolutes lose their speed advantage over Hammer Hunters at about the 100 gr powder capacity level. From the high 90s on up Absolutes don't out perform Hunters.
Steve Davis
Administrator
hammerbullets.com/product/284-cal-155g-absolute-hammer/
Here is the 1st of many Absolute Hammers to come. We will be designing and producing these from .172 cal all the way up. Introduction of bullets will be in the most popular calibers and common twist rates and working our way into the less common stuff. We will base our design work based on sales of our current line.
We set out to design this bullet to address the problem that we see with bullets of tight bore specifications that engraver further out onto the ogive resulting in poor bc performance. We came up with an ogive design that does not allow any engraving forward of the shoulder of the bullet. Just before the ogive reaches bore dia we put in a reverse PDR going into the first PDR drive band. For those that don't know PDR is Parabolic Drag Reduction, this is what we patented. Now there will be no difference from rifle to rifle in how much they distort the nose of the bullet. The only thing that can change is the configuration of engraving on the baring surface. So with this design you will likely not be able to reach the lands. Nor will you base to ogive measuring tools work as you are used to. They will set on the shoulder of the bullet.
We knew when we started the 1st prototype design that we would be seeing a reduction is engraving pressure. Boy were we surprised! We are getting 3320 fps with this 155g Absolute Hammer in our 27" 280ai with very comfortable pressure. 2950 fps is the highest vel that Hodgdon shows with a 150g bullet and the fastest that Nosler shows for a 150g is 3107. The highest vel they show for a 160g bullet is 2872 fps Hodgdon and 3045 fps Nosler. They are getting their vel using H1000 and 4831 burn rate powders. We were not able to find any pressure until we dropped down to rl16 powder. We have not experimented with many powders as we were just after accuracy and ballistic information. We are running about 10g more powder at this burn rate than Hodgdon data shows for a similar burn rate and bullet weight.
So to give you an idea, the Absolute Hammer will gain enough vel to make a 30-06 run sxs with a 300wm. Hodgdon data shows a 30-06 running a 180g bullet at 2850 fps on the top end and the 300wm running just shy of 3050 for a 180g bullet. Assuming we see the same increase in vel with the 30-06 as we see with the 280ai, this is truly a game changer. Magnum plus velocities from large rifle cartridges and ultramag plus velocities from magnum cartridges. Trust me we will be testing big magnums very soon. I am pretty sure we will be pushing the 3600 fps mark with a 200g bullet in the Remington Ultramag. I will update on this asap.
Here is a pic, let me know what you think.
mcd
Senior Member
Very interesting, Steve! Cudos to you and Brian.
farleg
Platinum Member
Absolute brilliant
Can’t wait till it gets out in the field
Cheers Steve & Brian
Steve Davis
Administrator
The bc crowd at LRH should start yelling from the 5 cent seats soon. Got one that started. It is going to be fun explaining that an extra 300fps is the same as a very big increase in bc.
farleg
Platinum Member
I can’t wait
hearing the rumble in the jungle from here already
carsyn22
Senior Member
nice! I'm looking forward to a fast 300 wm bullet for a 10" twist
bc sportsman
Full Member
Great news Steve!
I'll add my wish list for 30 cal bullets for 1:10 and 1:12 twists for those of use who hunt in the bitter cold at relatvely low altitude.
warrenoliver
New Member
Exciting news! I am preparing for the fall elk hunt. Thought I was all set with the 146 hammer hunter over 61.9 gr H4831SC in my .280AI for a muzzle velocity of 3038 fps. I'm anxious to try the .284 AH at my local range at 600 yards.
What powder load do you suggest that I start with?
Thanks for working on this.
Steve Davis
Administrator
What twist is your barrel? This Absolute Hammer needs a min of 8.5"
schw15
New Member
Just bought the 143 hammer hunters for the 28 nosler but wow what would the 155 absolute run and what powder? That would be impressive
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I Love This Place
warrenoliver
New Member
Darn! 9.5
beeman
Senior Member
When is the expected release date? I’m in Canada and have been waiting to place a order till the AH were ready.
Steve Davis
Administrator
I am not sure what powder. We have typically been running the N570 in the 28n. I am sure that it will be too slow for the Absolute Hammer. N565 or N555 I'm thinking one of these might be the bet. Still get the magic of the Viht double base vel. If I am correct it should run at about 3650 fps.
Steve Davis
Administrator
The 155g 7mm is the 1st Absolute to be ready to order. We will be adding them to the line as fast as we can starting with the most popular calibers and twist rates. Then just expand out from there until we have most everything covered that the Hammer Hunter line has.
schw15
New Member
That would be pretty impressive for a 155 faster than the 143. But faster powders are required. Awesome stuff glad you guys keep finding new ways. That would be pretty sweet in a target bullet with a higher bc and going that fast
Steve Davis
Administrator
Steve,
What load were you running with the 155 Absolute Hammer? I’m also running a 27” 280 AI.
Our test load for the 155AH was with Peterson brass and 60g rl16. I have been leery to post this because it is of the charts. This load should never be considered with any other bullet. Of course back off a few g and work up. This was the 1st time we have used the Peterson brass in 280ai. It is tough brass compared to nosler.
joliver
Full Member
WHOA!!!!! This is awesome!!!! shesh! I just ordered 143 HH's oh well good thing i only got 50 I think. meh we only live once. I haven't even really load developed the 143s yet. I'll try 50 of these for my 28. Weather is cooling off. You talked me into it Steve.
(NOTE: THIS POST IS SOMEWHAT CONDENSED. MANY BULLETS AND MUCH DATA HAS BEEN ADDED/GATHERED SINCE THE ABSOUTES WERE ORIGINALLY ANNOUNCED)
Steve Davis
Administrator
Steve,
Have you been able to compare the same loads with the new bullet vs old? How much back to the drawing board will I need to do with my loads? Since Velocity is so high on these new guys I am a bit curious where I should start once I do start loading up.
I have a really sweet load for my 124 HH's Do I take 2 gn's off and start up again?
It will be a whole new work up. These bullets will be like working a load for a wildcat cartridge. If you start with the powder you are using and see how it works then you can make a determination if you need to go to a faster powder and where to start with it.
How do these perform with standard for caliber barrel twist rates?
They will be fine. We will design bullets for various twist rates in each caliber. The Absolute Hammers will be a bit lighter for caliber in each twist rate than the Hammer Hunters because we took a little meat out of the nose.
(MUCH DISCUSSION ON LOADS AND POWDER BURN RATES. ALSO CHANGING PRIMERS TO GET BETTER ES/SD IN LOADS. ABSOLUTES REQUIRE FASTER BURN RATE POWDERS THAN TRADITIONAL DESIGN/WEIGHT BULLETS)
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday 300 rum how was the beer & probably the most important question what brand lol
I’m back from the girls (his cows) & few already asked & answered thanks to all
Still got a couple though ( surprise
)1/ Do you see the difference in the primers often , Im mainly a federal & Remington guy with very good es on nearly all my loads
2/ Why wouldn’t you try a different powder to see if there is more ( my thoughts as I like to no the line )
3/ do you see a major problem with the chambering in the rbh ( watching this closely for future reference for myself ) time will tell no doubt
Think that’s it for now
Overall the saum has just shown us part of the equation with the absolute & how that equation has changed to the norm thanks for your time very appreciated
Now just get out & hammer something even a squirrel 🐿 would do
Cheers
mbruce
Platinum Member
farleg - here’s some excellent info on primers. Primers and their seating depth affect all cartridges...brands’ burn intensity, duration, and timing are all different
Full article- www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=1471
Accurate Shooter summary - bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/06/lr-primer-types-tested-for-velocity-essd-group-size-and-more/
Here’s a cool And “primer flame” accurate video. At 1:32 starts the primer sequence:
Now you’re ready to move on to “bushing the firing pin”
rh300um
Platinum Member
Ok
Just got back home
Spotted 17 bulls this morning, 2 are definitely shooters. Screaming, mud covered and the cows are HOT!!
Back to business here.
After the elk hit the timber to bed down it was time to shoot.
Drove to a area away from were the elk are and shot.
Out to 1070 yards. I will say this. The BC is much better than advertised!
I gave Steve my results and he’s going to run the numbers to see if he matches me on my numbers.
Stay tuned!
joliver
Full Member
86gr, 9gr over max charge for a 150gr bullet in the nosler book. Exactly 25fps faster than max 150gr projectile for speed listed in the nosler book
all shots fired today incase someone see something I don’t. left to right is 81 top is 86gr
rh300um
Platinum Member
I’d keep going up. No primer issues. No ejector marks (Hornady brass =soft).
2 things to pay attention to.
Neck tension! Make sure you anneal the brass! Every time!
Shoulder bump! Make sure it’s no more then .002 Always!
Oh! 3 make sure you’re primers are always seated. ALL the way!
farleg
Platinum Member
JOLIVER - So I need an adult.
First off is it 81 degrees here in NC and the humidity is very high today. That being said here are the results.
shot one is 81gr, shot two is 83gr, shot 3 is 85gr slightly not smooth bolt lift. (But my gun does that occasionally even with low powered rounds, no other signs) proceeded to 86gr shot stiff bolt lift and ejector marks. So Im scared to move on without superior intelligence.
Gouping was amazing. All shots of variable loads were all within an inch group.
IMR-7828 (none sc) OAL is 3.56, Hornady once fired brass, CCI250 primers. I’ll post pictures of the brass when I get home.
farleg -
Gday joliver & others
I thought it might have been better to quote this post as gives a bit more to go through than just the pics although they are great to see & to me I’m with rh300um keep going ( maybe .5 gr ea time ) & eagle eye ( mcd ) well I need to say no more than well picked up
the biggest thing unanswered to me is bolt lift even on low powered rounds
now im not in the league of what causes this or what’s happening but my question is did your 86 gr show more or around the same as the low power loads when that occurs
dont no if I’m barking up the wrong tree ? Others will no if this is relivent or not & maybe the other recommendation will fix this ?
cheers
joliver
Full Member
It is very relevant. I think RH300UM is touching on this to make sure brass is prepped better. The shoulder bump to .002 would prevent this probably. Good catch on the other two ejector marks too. I didn’t notice that. That’s exactly why I posted that. So plan for today is to inspect my brass the brass of the upper loads and clean the gun out and fire 87 and see what happens! I’ll watch the primers closer for pressure. Thanks gents
mcd
Senior Member
Joliver,
While I completely agree with rh300um on the crucial steps, I scrolled up and now remember you were shooting once fired brass, and 85 grains gave light bolt lift, and 86 grains gave substantial bolt lift. Personally I wouldn’t go higher after seeing that unless you’re certain you had something out of sorts. Your primers, while progressively looking flatter, which is completely normal as you climb in pressure appear to be starting to crater into the firing pin on the higher pressure loads. Look at the little burr developing at that spot. It appears to go halfway around, but that could be the camera too. While I just posted something not long ago that “brass lies”, I have a pressure system allowing me to validate that. In that same thread, I also said I wouldn’t shoot a load that gave tight bolt lift, even if it were within pressure limits. I would add, at least as importantly, I wouldn’t shoot a load that the primer was starting to compromise it’s seal. Flattening is one thing, blowing open is quite another.
rh300um
Platinum Member
Shot on paper this morning
1002 yards
7saum with 155 AH @ 3348 fps Es of 6
Calm. No wind.
47 degrees
70% humidity
30.04 AP
Smokey/Haze made it interesting
Prone from bipod with rear bag
.272 for BC today
Theses are my final 3 shots this morning
Shot 7 rounds at rocks that were 1/2 to 3/4 moa from 925 to 1043 yards to dial it in.
That’s a .4 moa group at 1k!
Probably couldn’t do that again. Especially from a light hunting rifle
joliver
Full Member
Yep well MCD you just validated what I discovered. Went up to 90grs and at that charge the primer removed its self from the brass. Speed was 3597 but was obviously crazy over pressure. That concludes my testing with this powder. So with that being said if I go to a faster burning powder will I see pressure sooner? I’ve got to pull bullets but I am going to shoot 143 HH behind RL-33 while I’m out here.
mcd
Senior Member
I’d try Re-26 if you have some. I think I mentioned that before, can’t remember. Make sure you crimp the AH in place if you can. Shot start will be much better. You need to load up that double based powder in Re-26 so that the back side comes in earlier than later. Should do a bit better than IMR 7828SSC, but I do have to say I’m surprised it didn’t do you better.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday joliver
by any chance did you take some pics of the next series of shots on your way to 90 gr
cheers
joliver
Full Member
I will take some pictures when i get home from work this morning. The ejector marks were slightly more pronounced. I was probably very foolish to continue shooting the larger charge weights. but did go up progressively. I had to bang the 90gr out with a cleaning rod as it didn't eject that piece of brass probably won't hold a primer securely enough to shoot again. Lesson learned, very important lesson was learned today. Now on to RL-26
riceman
Global Moderator
Gday riceman
Howz your data going ( I’m not sure on our time differences)
Curious not pushy
Cheers
Just couldn't get out yesterday. Too many things to do, trying to finish projects around the house before rice harvest. We'll be starting in 3 days. That will be it for testing at that point. 7 days a week for 5 to 6 weeks.
I did load up rl 26 and staball 6.5, I'll take it to work if I have a opening I'll try..
Somehow I found a little time to shoot this morning?
Rl 26
67 3086
68 3124
69 3151
70 3208
71 3255
72 3294 heavy bolt lift, catering primer
Staball 6.5
61 2989
62 3028
63 3026
64 3107
65 3124
66 3132
67 3155 no pressure yet
joliver
Full Member
picture as requested.
imr 7828
87 Gr= 3379
88 gr= 3476
89gr = 3597
every load had an ejector Mark last one had to be removed from breech with cleaning rod.
from here researching a starting point for N565 and on the waiting list on 4 websites for RL-26
joliver
Full Member
Riceman, how much space do you have left with the sta ball 6.5!? Looks promising!
riceman
Global Moderator
Joliver, Lots of room on staball 6.5
Mcd, seems 3200 is where it tops out, as for now. Not a bad thing for a 155 gn bullet. Testing for accuracy is later.
(TYPICAL EXCHANGE OF QUESTIONS)
farleg said:
mcd Avatar
Sep 14, 2020 at 11:08am mcd said:
Assuming good accuracy at 3200 FPS, looks like you may have a good combo. I had to scroll up to remember what you had, and I noticed you crimped, which is a good thing.
Gday mcd
do you think this rifle cartridge projectile combo is topped out around the 3200 mark or only with those powders
cheers
Hard to say. So many variables. Normally, I’d think Re-26 is a bit too fast for a 7 Mag with a 155 gr bullet, so I’d assume slower powders would beat it traditionally. However, since this bullet demands a much faster powder, if it’s close to case fill, I don’t think there’s anything that will be faster. If there is, it wouldn’t be by much.
mcd
Senior Member
Got it with r26 but isn’t the stabil 6,5 faster again & riceman said still space left
would you stop there or go to faster powders ?
cheers
Re-26 is far faster than most think. I’ve proven it with the Pressure Trace too, as Re-23, which I also think is faster than its designation is way slower than 26, volume case fill (not weight) compared to pressure. I would not think Stabil 6.5 will produce a faster velocity in this particular instance, but I know it’s a screamer in the 4350 burn range. If I were to try a 4350 in this particular case, I’d go with Accurate 4350 or N555, both at the slowest end of the 4350 powders. Both are also excellent powders. The Accurate 4350 is far underrated. Great powder.
mcd
Senior Member
Having said that, I’d look at the 4831 burn range first over the 4350 range. Nonetheless, if the Re-26 combo shoots well, I wouldn’t even do anything else. Once Re-26 is above 95% case fill, it’s hard to beat on velocity. I’ve never experienced poor accuracy with it too. The Swiss know what they’re doing. Remember, it and Re-17 come from the same Swiss plant. Most of the other Reloder powders are from Sweden.
farleg
Platinum Member
Thanks for that & your knowledge
limited over here with powders & knowledge
cant get a lot of those powders here so how do you see h4350 ior r16 n the mix of things
cheers
mcd
Senior Member
Ha, ha. Just to answer more directly to your question, both of those are in the middle of the 4350 burn range. Both are also great powders. Every situation is different, but in my particular testing, H4350 is almost exactly as fast as Re-16 for the pressure put out. Most believe Re-16 to be 100 FPS faster, and I’m not seeing it yet. I know you have an equivalent for H4831SC (or should I say the original, lol) over there, and that’s what I’d reach for first. There isn’t a more stable powder than H4831SC too. It’s rock solid.
mcd
Senior Member
N565 is a good one as well. In the end, don’t “expect” what you “hope” for. Observe the signs carefully, and don’t continue beyond when signs are present. The critical signs are the primer cratering around the firing pin and the sticky bolt lift. The ejector mark is a traditional earlier sign, but in my case specifically, it is worthless. I’m guessing my bolt face has a pronounced transition there instead of a smooth radius and just imprints everything it touches. That doesn’t mean yours does though, so that still can be an early indicator. Only you will know. They can be hard to spot, surprisingly. The best thing is to take a picture and zoom in.
mbruce
Platinum Member
I use a $11 Bausch & Lomb 10x Loupe
joliver - trash brass with loose primer pockets. loose primer pockets won't shoot well and the gas cuts your bolt face...then eventually escapes somewhere not designed, doing bad things.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I'm just over here waiting on 25 and 30 Cal's
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rh300um
Platinum Member
I retested the primers in the 7saum this morning.
I prefer to duplicate Most tests at least 3 times with the same results before I trust the results. This is one example of of duplication and it’s importance in load developments.
Ive shot 50 of the Absolute Hammers now testing and testing again. One more test at long range (1k) and I will have the needed information to hunt with this season.
fotis
New Member
Man those 6.5 AH should be doing 3800 fps from my 6.5 Bee.
It already does 3550 with the 127 LRX.
The 131 hammers are cool too!
rh300um
Platinum Member
It’s 80 degrees here now so I tested the 155 AH load in the heat. Still accurate and acceptable velocities and Es.
Steve Davis
Administrator
I'm about to head into the shop to get the lathe running on a new program. Got a few minutes so I'll quickly give some shooting results from the weekend. Did a bunch of shooting over the two days. The interesting thing that we found was that once we reached cartridges running North of 80g of powder the vel increase with the Absolutes started to become less. When we reached cartridges pushing 100g of powder we stopped seeing a vel increase. Small sample but I think there is a point of diminishing returns as the cartridges get very big. Below this level we are seeing huge vel increases and still the very easy Hammer accuracy.
Steve Davis
Administrator
Unlike the normal and smaller cases, the big boys were able to hit pressure with "normal" powders. I will be interested to hear how the 28 nosler runs.
We spent quite a bit of time with the 178g AH this last weekend. In 3006 we ran it up to 3100 fps. Then in 300wm ran to 3440 fps. The 300 rum ran to 3520 fps. We then ran a 262g AH in the 338 lap imp. It hit pressure at the same vel that I run the 260 HH. Same result in the 338 Fat Girl. More testing to come. Not sure if it is the size of the case or the weight of the bullet. I have good data for three 213g HH in my 338 lap imp. We will make a 210g AH for comparison.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I'm not speaking for Steve in any capacity but I know he's covered up at the moment, with the AH you wont be able measure to the lands like you can with conventional bullet as you wont have a full bullet diameter until you get to the baring bands so that will be the first thing to contact the lands, as far as powder what I have seen so far is if your loading a 180gr bullet look at the 150-165gr powder choices 150/130, 130/100 and so on, once again I'm not speaking for Steve in any way shape or form, this is just what i have gathered so far and is just a suggestion, Welcome from Indiana, I hope this helps you some
Steve Davis
Administrator
I finally got caught up enough to spend some time catching up on the thread.
So last weekend we did two days of loading and shooting the Absolutes. Had some great results and some that were a little puzzling.
What we are doing to figure out a load is start with a known powder for the bullet weight. Work that combo up as far as possible and glean from that data where to go next. Best to start with a combo that you can't get into trouble with.
1st rifle we worked with was a Ruger American 6.5 Creed. This rifle has always been slow, but shoots well. I think we figured out why it is slow. Appears that the chamber is big and rough. Previous load with the 124g HH was 40g Varget at 2920 fps. So we started there and went up to 43g and a vel of 3062 fps. This was showing stiff extraction and ejector mark. Again I think this is due to a poor chamber. I think we should see another 100 fps. We then tried 6.5 staball, blc2, tac, cfe223 and 8208xbr. They all got to basically the same place. This is when we started mic'ing the brass and seeing that it is all expanding more than it should. Also the fired brass is all rough from marks in the chamber. Felt like we kinda wasted our time on this one.
We then went to our 6.5-05 ai 28" barrel. This rifle is built on an old Ruger Mauser style action. Here we did what I tell everyone not to do and went straight to a powder that we thought would be good. We are using Peterson 270 win brass trimmed and fire formed. We went to H100V and started at 55g and a vel of 3422 fps worked up to 57g where we got an extractor mark and a cratered primer and a vel of 3573 fps. The primer pocket on the Peterson brass was still tight. I would consider this a very max load, brass good for about 3 firings.
Now we went to my 280ai 22" 8" twist Proof barrel. My previous load for this rifle was the 143g HH at 3126fps with rl23. We decided to start with H100v and work up. Started low at 56g, 1g under a max load from Hodgdon for a 130g bullet. We worked this load up in 1g increments with very nice 40 fps per g increases. We took it up to 64g and a vel of 3427 fps. At this mark the old Win model 70 big firing pin hole was giving too big of a crater. Backed it down to 63g and a comfortable 3387 fps shooting nearly one hole at 200y. Will be sending the bolt in to get it bushed next week after I fire the 140g AH at 1000y to check bc.
Now we took on the 30 cals with the 178g AH. 1st the 30-06 in a factory Rem Long Range 26" barrel. Loaded at 3.56" oal we started with H100v with this one too. Started with Win brass and wlrm primer and 54g. This is one g over the start load for 180g in the Hodgdon data. Took this up to 60g and a vel of 3036 with a slight leak around the primer. We then switched to Lapua brass with wlrm primer and went up to 62g with a pimer leak. Swithed to f215m primer and lost the leaky primer. Backed it down a g and went with 61g and a vel of 3080 and shooting 7/8" at 200y.
Went to the Browning Hell's Canyon 300 rum from here. Started with a known load for the 181g HH at 95g. I will add that the long nose of the 178g could not mag feed in the short magazine. We had to single feed at an oal of 3.790". Started with 95g rl26 and took it up to 97g and a vel of 3515 fps. This showed an extractor mark on the adg brass. Tried n565 and retumbo with basically the same result. So in the rum size cartirdge we did not see the need for faster powder but did see about 120 fps gain over the 181g HH. It seems at this point that the big capacity cartridges are not showing as much gain in vel as the normal and standard magnum cartridges.
Then ran a 262g .338 AH in my 338 Lap imp. We found this cartridge with 100g plus to finish out at the same vel as I had previously ran the 260g HH. More testing to be done here but right now looks like once we get into cartridges approaching 100g powder capacity that we may have reached the end of the vel advantage of the Absolute. More testing needs to be done here. The Absolute still has what it was originally designed for, no engraving on the nose of the bullet messing up the bc from rifle to rifle.
Hopefully we will have some time to shoot some more this weekend. Hope this is helpful.
I still want everyone to start with powders that are known for the weight of the bullet and start working from there. Always better to start with stuff that you can't get in trouble with than to jump into something that you think will be good on a whim. Collect data and determine where to go from there.
farleg
Platinum Member
bc sportsman said:
Not based on experience, just my very sharp analytical mind...LOL...
Im just offering these thoughts and wild assed guesses (WAG) to stimulate some insight from those of u with actual experience using Hammers on animals.
On the topic of the amount of bullet shank after fragmentation, and the size of the fragments, my belief is that at a minimum, the shank should have enough momentum to penetrate through the shoulder to the far side of the target animal's vitals. The major fragments should be able to penetrate well into the vital organ cavity. If the bullet can do that then I believe it will perform well on pretty well any shot.
So, the variables are the mass of the bones to be penetrated, the organ (lung, heart) cavity width, the momentum of the shank as well as the 2 - 4 major fragments.
Assuming a tough but not dangerous animal, elk or ??, Im conjecturing that a minimum 70-100 gr shank and 2-4 fragments that are 20 gr plus in size (for decent momentum). Impact velocity should not be less than what Steve has set. I belueve that is either 1600 or 1800 fps.
So, thise who know better than me please chime in. No offence taken if Im shown to be way off base with my WAG!
Gday bc Love your VSAM
you’ve opened a can of worms in more than one way
Is it fishing season over there Lol I’m gone hook line & sinker I’ll put my WAG forward With my OPT ( own personal thoughts )
no offence taken with others opt or opb ( own personal beliefs)
ok I’m in a stupid mood & to much time on my hands
& haven’t even had a drink so after dealing with the hammers on animals & lots of angles I’m coming to the conclusion Of the following
I don’t like working oN a chest cavity width broadside ( never have )
penertration of shank :
OPT you need a shank that can reach the vitals from most angles Roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of the animal ( DG I’ll leave out )
this does 2 main things Pretty well guarantees a exit On most shots
I love blood trail & no matter how careful we are on shot placement we are dealing with animals that move especially true on long range as I’m buggered if every animal stays still for the shot & it can go from broadside to hard quartering very quickly
the last is if our shot isn’t the best first your usually dealing with a fleeing animal & a lot of them give you a rear view or very hard quarter away so my OPT is if it does happen I can get to the vitals nearly every time as my OPB is we deserve to dispatch the animal as quick as possible
I think as a caliber your 70/100 gr would cover .270 to 30 cal on most animals in most ranges
longrange my OPT is you need to increase this
petal size : your 20 gr I’ve only recovered one I think that big 21.9 gr ( actually it was found on the ground in that video Steve posted For me ) I’ve got others @ my other home away from home Just can’t weigh them @ the moment
The petals I’ve recovered have showed a consistent pattern that being from 1.2 to 10.3 Gr very shallow penetration no more than 12 in most around 6/8 Not including the 1.2
11.5 to 17.6 gr penetration is Around 14/16 in & few @18/20 In With the majority I haven’t a clue as they are exiting
Your 20 gr petal does it need to be that big
hmmm yes on some animals yes has a lot of merit
deer species upto say mulies ?
id drop down in weight & get velocity up from the norm & in ranges that suite
so my conclusion is I don’t care what angle the shot is I’m going to get through to the vitals not only with shank but most of the petals will reach aswell on the majority of shots
I want as many irons in the fire as possible
I think you’ve landed this fish for now & looking forward to who else takes the bait & runs with it
man just a thought 100 gr from my rum
I’ll work on the 151ah first love this place & you guys
cheers
(BOY, HAVE WE COME A LONG WAY SINCE THESE THREADS WERE WRITTEN!!! - editor's comments)
bc sportsman
Full Member
Hi harperc, your question about terminal performance comparison between 200 gr bullet with 120 gr shank and larger petals vs a faster moving 150 gr bullet with 120 gr shank and smaller petals is interesting.
I have no idea which would be more effective but am leaning towards favouring the faster bullet.
farleg
Platinum Member
bc sportsman said:
Hi Farleg, ur experience with fragments from about 11 to 17 gr penetrating 16 - 18" seems to indicate to me that my WAG of minimum 20 gr petals for good penetration into vitals may have been too high and that 10 gr plus might be a more realistic for good penetration into vitals.
Thanks for the info!
.gday bc
What the petals have shown me is how effective they are in killing
& with the shank that goes straight & the form it has the petals are like a tumbling bullet in so many ways We just don’t no where they will end up
this is good to me as the shank will kill if we do our part with good placement but if things go the wrong way it may well be that one petal that is the saviour of the day
your 10 gr makes sense to me & if I look @ from a caliber perspective ( 30 cal or less & upto around the 400/500 Mark )
a
90 gr 25 cal that leaves around 50 gr shank @ I’m more than happy with that on paper to get through to vitals from most angles imo
others who shoot this caliber would no more real world data if this is so So I’m going to test this theory
where all this becomes a little sketchy is when you bring speed into the mix as there is more going on than we can see imo once again but you can’t not see the results as it’s just incredible how efficient killers they become when you get into hyper velocities
told you you’ve got me hook line & sinker I’ve only got 3&1/2hrs sleep
& woke up ticking ( now I’m getting told to go to bed ) it’s all cool in honesty my body clock hasn’t adjusted from a mixed up work schedule but I was ticking
love this place
Cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday all
got my first taste of the absolute
151in 30 cal
excuse the note pic as I put this in my reloading data File
Overview:300 rum 96.6 gr of h4350 for 3808 FPS
please don’t duplicate this load unless working up I started with 92 gr h4350 & I would start a little lower as I’ve got extensive history with this rifle with 125/130/140&150 projectiles as well as heavier
now I just have to hammer something with them or should I say launch
overall I got around 200 FPS gain over other 150 gr projectiles in this rifle only difference being the brass type / primers
cheers
farleg
Platinum Member
Here’s the top speed
Harperc it will be interesting to see if I can replicate in a couple other rums a fierce & blaser
yes it’s something for him to definitely Consider & it’s going to be awesome on animals I’m sure It launches birds on the dam better than the 375 rum & that was from 219 mtrs
but all in all this is one hell of a combo
I still have to do my temp tests then I’ll be happy with this part
cheers
On a side note
when I opened the package today the invoice from Steve had a message
“ GET THEM CRANKING “
Hmmmm ok I believe I’ve just started
well all I’ll say is can’t wait to get what I’ve been hanging out for
for which I believe the 30 cal swift is not far away
Thanks Steve / Brian & everyone this taseegian is a happy camper
ButterBean
Platinum Member
That's freaking Screaming, Nothing carries that home
Oh by the way, I Love This Place
Steve Davis
Administrator
Over the last year or so we have made the hollow point deeper on quite a few of the bullets. When we 1st started we really had no consideration for the job of the petals. The only thing that mattered to us was the form of the retained shank. We have learned that we can't ignore the better terminal performance when the shed petals get bigger. Good example is the .338 213g Hammer Hunter. It had poor performance on game until we made the HP significantly deeper. Now they weigh 210g but kill like they should. That said the big bore Shock Hammers have been very successful on dangerous game in Africa.
I see in the near future the Dead Blow Hammer Line mirroring the HH and AH line for sure and pending farleg testing on game possibly in the Shock Hammers as well. We are going to have too many bullets!!!
riceman
Global Moderator
The crimp helps with a consistent start for these bullets. Hammers do not take alot to get them going, because of the baring surfaces are only on the ridges. Even less with the absolute bullets.
Check out Butterbean's thread on "how and why I use a lee factory crimp" in search bar or just scroll back some. He explains it better than I can.
I crimp everything 223 thru 300wby
Just type in "crimp" in search bar
hope this helps Alan
Steve Davis
Administrator
We just loaded a couple of Browning 308's. We tried half a dozen powders and the clear winner was Ramshot Tac. Vel was 3120 fps. This was with Lapua brass.
bojo34
Full Member
Can someone with experience loading the absolutes please pass along how they determined a starting COL? I generally use the Hornady OAL guage to find the lands for any particular bullet then play with different seating depths off the lands......don't believe this will work given the ogive of the absolutes.
Steve Davis
Administrator
I do it old school. Let the mag dictate the longest and start there or if I can get to the lands I sneak up on them and then back off 20 thou and start there. We have not found the Absolutes to be any more picky about the jump than the other Hammer lines.
farleg
Platinum Member
Gday bojo34
old school here along with Steve but with a twist from left field
jump dosent concern me as a couple guys no I’ve got some really EXTREME jump the reason is simple to me as it’s in the field where potential problems can exist & this will not apply to the majority of shooters but to the few look outside of the square guys like me who shoot really light for caliber projectiles it’s more important to get good case neck grip on the projectile than worry about chasing the lands
JM2CW
cheers
rh300um
Platinum Member
I noticed there's no absolutes in 338. Is there a reason for this?
The 338 AH were tested. Results were no gain in velocity over the HH.
So it was not produced
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Z987k,
In testing, it was found that Absolutes lose their speed advantage over Hammer Hunters at about the 100 gr powder capacity level. From the high 90s on up Absolutes don't out perform Hunters.