Letting the 6.5 118 HHT Go
- Thread starter gltaylor
- Start date
BFD
Hammer Time Executive member
No worries there, just a suggestion to clear the air on the bullet.
still huntin
Well-known member
I love me some Farleg.
Letting the 6.5 118HHT go (cont.)
Finally shot another deer with the 6.5 118HHT at 3600 fps impact.
Yes they will kill and kill reasonably well, and yes they will leave a good blood trail.
Do they shed their nose and form “normal” larger petals that penetrate well and do collateral damage typical of Hammer bullets? No.
Do they need some adjustment just like the old 137 HH did? Yes, probably so.
We’re still waiting on results from you folks who shoot Creedmoors or 260 Rems to see how they perform at lower impact velocities. We need to find out if this particular bullet has an upper velocity ceiling for proper operation – and/or whether it can be adjusted/fixed.
At very high impact velocities the bullets continue to open fairly quickly, even without major bone contact.
This deer was intentionally shot well behind the shoulder to avoid any heavy bone contact and premature bullet upset. The bullet did lightly clip a rib bone on entry, and that far back, the ribs are somewhat thicker/bigger. Only the outer edge of one rib bone was involved. Even with that, the bullet upset very quickly. The entry hole was about 1 ½” in diameter. On exit, the bullet took out 3 ribs and left an exit hole of almost 3”. To it’s credit, there was almost no blood shot tissue this time. The bullet did travel in a straight line and did not veer off.
The shank did not penetrate the heart or lungs. It Did completely rupture the liver. The “bubble” that was formed was very effective and obviously generated a great deal of pressure. The liver was severely lacerated and basically exploded by the pressure. Photos demonstrate this very graphically. One portion of the liver was simply removed (gone). This was a smaller deer, so the liver (and ”bubble” formation) was at about a 4” depth of penetration into the body.
Pressure was sufficient to eject liver matter onto the ground at the off-side exit hole.
Stevie Wonder could have followed the blood trail. The deer ran 37 yds after impact (no bang-flop).
Of concern is the petal performance. If you look at the photos, you can see that “normal” larger individual petals were not formed. The petals were more like small flakes or “flecks” that scattered out somewhat laterally and impacted the lung lobes and bits of the heart. None of the petals penetrated through the lung lobes or heart muscle. They “peppered” the lungs and heart doing shallow damage. The “bubble” did turn half of the liver into complete mush/goo – which was very good!
Below the exit hole there is an additional small hole which resembles the type of wound made by a petal from a traditional Hammer as it exits. I am at a loss to determine what this small hole is from. I don’t know if this was from a bone fragment or whatever? There were no other indications of anything resembling a traditional petal in the carcass. All of the other identified flakes/flecks were very small and penetrated very little at all. They were about the size of pepper.
I’ll shoot another one or two deer (at most) to get more results. I want to shoot another deer with shoulder bone involvement to quantify (repeat/confirm) how violently this particular bullet design upsets and how much meat destruction/bloodshot occurs at high velocity impact with bone.
If any of you get a deer with a Creedmoor or 260 Rem (mid-sized) cartridge, please take photos and do a necropsy to give us more data at lower impact velocities. For now, it appears that impact velocities above about 32-3300 fps are not particularly desirable if there is significant bone involvement. Stay off of shoulders unless you want to throw one away.
Regards, Photos to follow.
Finally shot another deer with the 6.5 118HHT at 3600 fps impact.
Yes they will kill and kill reasonably well, and yes they will leave a good blood trail.
Do they shed their nose and form “normal” larger petals that penetrate well and do collateral damage typical of Hammer bullets? No.
Do they need some adjustment just like the old 137 HH did? Yes, probably so.
We’re still waiting on results from you folks who shoot Creedmoors or 260 Rems to see how they perform at lower impact velocities. We need to find out if this particular bullet has an upper velocity ceiling for proper operation – and/or whether it can be adjusted/fixed.
At very high impact velocities the bullets continue to open fairly quickly, even without major bone contact.
This deer was intentionally shot well behind the shoulder to avoid any heavy bone contact and premature bullet upset. The bullet did lightly clip a rib bone on entry, and that far back, the ribs are somewhat thicker/bigger. Only the outer edge of one rib bone was involved. Even with that, the bullet upset very quickly. The entry hole was about 1 ½” in diameter. On exit, the bullet took out 3 ribs and left an exit hole of almost 3”. To it’s credit, there was almost no blood shot tissue this time. The bullet did travel in a straight line and did not veer off.
The shank did not penetrate the heart or lungs. It Did completely rupture the liver. The “bubble” that was formed was very effective and obviously generated a great deal of pressure. The liver was severely lacerated and basically exploded by the pressure. Photos demonstrate this very graphically. One portion of the liver was simply removed (gone). This was a smaller deer, so the liver (and ”bubble” formation) was at about a 4” depth of penetration into the body.
Pressure was sufficient to eject liver matter onto the ground at the off-side exit hole.
Stevie Wonder could have followed the blood trail. The deer ran 37 yds after impact (no bang-flop).
Of concern is the petal performance. If you look at the photos, you can see that “normal” larger individual petals were not formed. The petals were more like small flakes or “flecks” that scattered out somewhat laterally and impacted the lung lobes and bits of the heart. None of the petals penetrated through the lung lobes or heart muscle. They “peppered” the lungs and heart doing shallow damage. The “bubble” did turn half of the liver into complete mush/goo – which was very good!
Below the exit hole there is an additional small hole which resembles the type of wound made by a petal from a traditional Hammer as it exits. I am at a loss to determine what this small hole is from. I don’t know if this was from a bone fragment or whatever? There were no other indications of anything resembling a traditional petal in the carcass. All of the other identified flakes/flecks were very small and penetrated very little at all. They were about the size of pepper.
I’ll shoot another one or two deer (at most) to get more results. I want to shoot another deer with shoulder bone involvement to quantify (repeat/confirm) how violently this particular bullet design upsets and how much meat destruction/bloodshot occurs at high velocity impact with bone.
If any of you get a deer with a Creedmoor or 260 Rem (mid-sized) cartridge, please take photos and do a necropsy to give us more data at lower impact velocities. For now, it appears that impact velocities above about 32-3300 fps are not particularly desirable if there is significant bone involvement. Stay off of shoulders unless you want to throw one away.
Regards, Photos to follow.
Attachments
CBH Australia
Hammer Time Executive member
Other manufacturers do not encourage exceeding realistic velocities here it is encouraged ."Hey guys, these bullets suck. They don't perform the same at 6000fps as they do at 1700fps! Absolute junk!"
Come on boys, let's light these 118's up and see how fast you can push them.
Farleg has said they are only good for cartridges smaller than .260 etc. My best guess is the majority of 6.5's smaller than .260 are in fact chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor.
Farleg, how did you establish that these are suited to popular 6.5 cartridges smaller than a .260?
But once you've seen it action, it can't be unseen.
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
Gday Cbh
The encouragement from the hammerboys is pretty rare within companies & one thing it does show is the need to know from them as then they can improve it if a weakness is observed
To some of us that’s a open ticket of ok game on
Next part
Looks like it’s break down time again & I’ll be a little kinda on the 118 this time
but I’m going to assume a little off my tinkered pill that’s got the same hp depth ( around 2 thou difference) but also be a little more specific So let’s get into it lol
Really I’m wrong to have labelled it a specific cartridge & should’ve rated it more on velocity impacts as I normally do man alive another strike against me & this pill
Basically I go about a pill by watching how quickly or slowly it opens @x velocity impact on different resistances & a non cns is the best full data as cns dosent give to much & known fail point’s always good to see
wound channel width , taper length the shape of it
The one I love to look @ first is low resistance & medium impacts 2500-3000 ( ha medium once they were considered high lol ) as these give a great indication on what a pill’s characteristics are Observing hide bone & tissue /vital damages , straight line turn or tumble, blood spray pattern if one is present look for shank / petal patterns in critter & on ground or trees etc & measuring impact to tip
Then just repeat & asses again watching for consistency & within a short space of time you get a feeling on what’s going on but really need numbers to really assess a pills true capabilities a measurement tool , metal detector axe or saw are valuable additions & I video most of it these days as great reference for me to go back over
Basically That’s how a pills characteristic & potential is derived @
Now the caveat most of my work was done on the 118 you guys don’t have ( thank goodness ) from buffalo to wallaby & a lot in between on over a 100 critters ( don’t know actual as stopped counting there )
So I had a pretty good feel on what it was doing & started to tinker
Fixing some bits making it worse with other depending on the tinkering that was done but I pulled the pin on those tinkered tests as my body said enough was enough & I was stuck in the paddock for a while contemplating what direction next & that wasn’t easy for me to admit defeat but it was what it was
Spoke to Steve told him ( which he was cool with ) & have not revisited that pill since
So the following recommendation is based off assumptions & why we await others to give the data to fine tune it’s true capabilities not my theory as I hate theories as factual always is best
So long way round for a short cut but here is my assumption theory
This pill will work best 3000 down looks like it exhibits the usual hht traits around the 2000/2100 mark so that range of impacts this pill will give good results
The interesting one will be the sub 2000 mark as I didn’t get that low but it’s showing way better @2000 than the hh&ah I’d shot so I’m sure that will still carry the same to 1700 but preformance of impact to tip will drop off that may start @1900 or be just below the 2040 I went to I just don’t know
So a bit of work for the guys here to do , to nut this pill out as I won’t visit this pill as my limited time available to autopsy now has moved to a couple other projects for the hammerboys but I wouldn’t be able to do those without mates & when joe kneedeep & rusty get here it’s game on we have a bit to do & part of that will also be to help me finish my tests on various brands I started that I asked who wanted what tested & am going to finish those
I’ve got most pills now & rest on way So that’s basically where I am with the 118 mainly theory based & look forward to everyone’s results to nut it out some more
& some tinkered 118 pills on the way to you to play with & don’t care if only groups or critters be good to get your perspective on them
Cheers
les
Hammer Time Executive member
It is interesting to follow this thread. I am excited about the 118HHT. I like that weight in the 6.5 Creedmoor. I have developed a very accurate load shared in the "Share Your Hammer Loads." It is pushing the pill at 3,024 fps. It sounds like I'm in the sweet spot. I'll be hunting with that round with confidence. I'm getting bug hole groups. I need to get out and see if I can put a few into coyotes.
@les ,
Bless your heart!
Please shoot some of the 118's and give us a report! Don't know if you do necropsies, but that would be MOST helpful.
I really wanted the 118 to work, but at my velocities they're not really up to the task.
When I get my new rifle I'm gonna start with the 125 hht and go from there.
Bless your heart!
Please shoot some of the 118's and give us a report! Don't know if you do necropsies, but that would be MOST helpful.
I really wanted the 118 to work, but at my velocities they're not really up to the task.
When I get my new rifle I'm gonna start with the 125 hht and go from there.
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
Gday
One thing I think the new comers need is a little perspective of how hard some of us as a group are on a pills performance level
Once we were happy to have good kills & overtime the bar has moved to higher levels
& we have been spoiled in getting a company that has not shyed away from trying to lift that bar which has been a incredible experience & journey to watch as most companies do it on their own & mostly in private which is cool as somethings I’ve been involved in are better left behind closed doors in the era we live in today
Basically The performance level of gains are getting harder to achieve so we are honing in on little things that can hopefully be improved yet in the grand scheme of things most pill kill’s pretty good now . ultimately if it can be improved it gives us even better pills tomorrow which I can see tweaks being made to do this
& a few discussions are going to be hashed out & if right or wrong the information relayed to the hammerboys & they will decide what is what
So it’s fun times ahead & I look forward to getting down to where a pill can be improved not stay with what we have today as still a lot of holes in the hht line in regard to weight offerings & a group of us are in the hammerboys ears on this & they will come out but man they are busy just look we don’t see Steve on here much now or lrh either
So let’s just keep doing what we do best is find a weakness or less than ideal work on it & see if it can be improved
Watch this space people as yes it can as you will eventually see
Cheers
One thing I think the new comers need is a little perspective of how hard some of us as a group are on a pills performance level
Once we were happy to have good kills & overtime the bar has moved to higher levels
& we have been spoiled in getting a company that has not shyed away from trying to lift that bar which has been a incredible experience & journey to watch as most companies do it on their own & mostly in private which is cool as somethings I’ve been involved in are better left behind closed doors in the era we live in today
Basically The performance level of gains are getting harder to achieve so we are honing in on little things that can hopefully be improved yet in the grand scheme of things most pill kill’s pretty good now . ultimately if it can be improved it gives us even better pills tomorrow which I can see tweaks being made to do this
& a few discussions are going to be hashed out & if right or wrong the information relayed to the hammerboys & they will decide what is what
So it’s fun times ahead & I look forward to getting down to where a pill can be improved not stay with what we have today as still a lot of holes in the hht line in regard to weight offerings & a group of us are in the hammerboys ears on this & they will come out but man they are busy just look we don’t see Steve on here much now or lrh either
So let’s just keep doing what we do best is find a weakness or less than ideal work on it & see if it can be improved
Watch this space people as yes it can as you will eventually see
Cheers
I was liking this one from afar. The 1-9" twist has appeal. Many 1-8"s don't quite come that way.
A couple of questions:
1) What's likely the lowest terminal velocity observed.
2) Splat factor looks good @gltaylor and @Farleg has likely put a few into smaller critter, how does it shape up as a long range varmint bullet?
A couple of questions:
1) What's likely the lowest terminal velocity observed.
2) Splat factor looks good @gltaylor and @Farleg has likely put a few into smaller critter, how does it shape up as a long range varmint bullet?
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
Gday Carl
1/
My lowest is just over 2000
I believe it will work fine @1700 as no indication of it not @2000 which you get subtle hints that a pill is on the edge around 300/500 before a pill will fail or less than ideal & my tweaked ones I just didn’t do enough so I am only assuming as things sometimes show up we don’t see coming & why the need to test the full spectrum of possibilities but I’m out on this pill sorry but wait till the next one that’s coming I’ll do more thorough testing with help that’s going to be doing it with me
2/ definitely a splat factor pushed fast
Varmit longrange it will work & put one in a yote will definitely show us how well
So no pressure @les
On varmit bullets & or longrange or should say low impacts I think that would need to be tweaked across the board & not only hammers & you would need to fine tune that pill for that application & you may get to 1600 in doing so & 1500 if extremely lucky but man alive I don’t know if a mono can as I’ve only seen a couple of the best frangible do ok down there but velocity is so low you just get bigger variations on killing but varmits hmm
Got you ticking now
Cheers
#2 on no pressure @les 
.
No real varmint hunting here....and I don't go out west prairie dog hunting any more. (HHT's would be an expensive test for sure!)
Hopefully we can get a good read on coyotes?
Yes, splat factor is back with the 118 @ velocity.
Don't have much capability on lower velocity cartridges. Hardly ever shoot them any more.
My new one in the pipeline will be a 6.5 based upon an improved 300 PRC - so I'm going in the other direction.
. No real varmint hunting here....and I don't go out west prairie dog hunting any more. (HHT's would be an expensive test for sure!)
Hopefully we can get a good read on coyotes?
Yes, splat factor is back with the 118 @ velocity.
Don't have much capability on lower velocity cartridges. Hardly ever shoot them any more.
My new one in the pipeline will be a 6.5 based upon an improved 300 PRC - so I'm going in the other direction
.
Always ticking on most cylinders, clutch needs work to get started.My new one in the pipeline will be a 6.5 based upon an improved 300 PRC - so I'm going in the other direction
Got you ticking now
Cheers
I still have hopes of a long range rockchuck. In the 6.5 Ultracat I start a 124 HH at 4000fps. If I recall I still have over 2000fps at 1000 or so. Need to run numbers again,
Not usually a fan of monos on varmint due to skip, but chucks aren't usually a volume shoot, and generally a good background can be achieved.
Compared to the 125 HHT think there would be a difference terminally in this scenario?
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
Gday carl
In that scenario hands down the 125hht would give way better terminal results around 2000
Now that would be cool a chuck @ a k
Cheers
CBH Australia
Hammer Time Executive member
Wow,
My comments, below. They were alluding to the fact that you suggest something like it's best for cartridges under .260 leading me to think you own and use a Creedmoor.
"Farleg has said they are only good for cartridges smaller than .260 etc. My best guess is the majority of 6.5's smaller than .260 are in fact chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor."
Farleg, how did you establish that these are suited to popular 6.5 cartridges smaller than a .260?
