Steve Davis
Administrator
(Originally posted 2/29/2020)
@ingwe asked me if I would start a thread detailing how we do load development, so here goes.
With a rifle that is new to us the 1st thing we do is clean it until there is no copper from other bullets in the barrel. I recommend this anytime you are changing bullets. Once the rifle is clean then I check all the optic mounting screws and action screws to make sure they are torqued to the proper level.
Now that the rifle is ready to go and we have a bullet chosen that is proper for the twist rate of the barrel ( I prefer to use bullets that are running with a higher than the min required twist for the given bullet for hunting), I will look at published load data for a like weight bullet from a couple of sources. I generally find what I need from Nosler and Hodgdon data. Any of the published load manuals will give you a good start load since the Hammers will show less pressure than conventional bullets. I like to look for a powder that does not show a compressed load. Since the pure copper bullets will be a bit longer than the equivalent weight lead bullet, compressed loads generally will not get enough powder in the case to reach top end. This will also depend on the seating depth of the bullet. If you have a mag and throat that will allow you to seat longer that will help with case capacity. As a general rule the Hammers will like powders on the faster side of normal powders listed for the bullet weight.
We prefer to use magnum primers with most cartridges. I am not as adamant about this as I used to be. Some smaller cartridges will show early pressure signs with the mag primer. If that happens then just switch to a standard primer.
Now that we have our ingredients picked out I figure out the longest COAL that will function properly in the rifle without touching the lands. If I can reach the lands I will start 20 thou off. There is no good reason to touch the lands particularly in a hunting rifle. A primer failure can stick a bullet in the bore and ruin you trophy of a lifetime. I know this personally. The method to this madness is simply that if I have to make a seating depth change to get good accuracy, there is only one way to go.
Now we are ready to light a fire in it. I always load with a chronograph and log muzzle vel with each shot. We use the Labradar now, but the Magneto Speed will also do you very well. I run a modified ladder to find my load. I like to load develop at a min 200y. Everything looks good at 100Y. I aim each shot at the same spot shooting as well as I can. I watch the target and expect to see pretty close to an moa target even if we have spread of vel over 200 fps. At this point the target is not the most important thing though. As long as we are not shooting all over the place. If it is bad I just change to a diff powder. No point in making the rifle like what I want it to. We run our ladder one shot one charge at a time looking for pressure. In most cartridges I load up in 1g increments. Small ones in smaller increments. Using the muzzle vel, bolt lift, ejector marks on the case head, and the flattening of the primer. I don't as much attention to the primer as the other indicators. Vel is a very good indicator of pressure. You can't have monster vel without pressure. The Hammers will show 50 to 100 fps higher vel, in most rifles, over the load data. Nosler data is pretty hot data and will line up pretty close with the Hammers. I like to find pressure and back away from it. That way I know where it is. This is kind of a "feel" thing as to how much to back off when you find pressure. Some brass is soft and shows more presser than some of the tough brass. If I am getting an ejector mark in Nosler or Norma brass I don't worry about it as much as I do with ADG or Lapua brass. As we work this ladder up, I like to see nice predictable increases in vel with each increase in charge weight. If it is random in the vel as it works up I usually change to a diff powder. Some times at low pressure though it is not as predictable.
Once we have found the top end, I load a few of this load and shoot them for group and to check to see that the ES is not goofy. For a hunting rifle under 1000y ES under 30 fps will be fine. I like it to be less for sure and usually I can not get myself to settle on a load unless it is under 20 fps ES. Particularly if it is not punching solid sub moa. At this point we are usually done with the load development and just zero the rifle to go out and confirm it at long range. Once in a while we will get a rifle that is not shooting as well as we expect. If that is the case then I will start seating deeper about 15 thou at a time, or a quarter turn on the seater die. Almost always within two or three adjustments the group will tighten right up. If I am making seating depth adjustments I don't bother shooting more than two shots if they are not good. Can't make a bad group better by shooting at it more times! Now zero dead nuts and you are ready to go confirm drops. Very rarely do we shoot over 20 rounds to finish a load that is solid sub moa. I strive for .5 moa and really don't spend time and resources to try and get better than that. I would rather go out and hunt rocks with my .5 moa rifle than try to get it tighter. Most rifles we are done in less than 15 shots and zeroed, ready to go confirm drops at long range.
I think that pretty much covers it. You can try this method with other brand bullets as well. They probably won't be quite as easy as the Hammers, but it is still a good process to save time and money.
I will add that we take all of our loading equipment to the range and load one at a time through the loading process. Makes it easy to make changes on the fly.
thebeeman
New Member
Aloha Steve,
Thanks for the information.
When you are fine tuning a load, do you ever try match primers?
Homer
Steve Davis
Administrator
If the rifle is not liking what is going on we generally switch the powder. Sometimes we will swap to another primer. We have learned not to try to force a rifle to like what we want. We have quite a few diff primers on hand.
thebeeman
New Member
Makes senses to not force a rifle too shoot what it don’t like.
the load i have shoots pretty good now, just want to see what i can squeeze outta her. I’ll try match primer and may bee bullet depth and see what happens.
i think in our previous emails, you recommended a powder which nobody stocks out here. So I’m working with H1000 for now which we have year around.
Hopefully, once the Coronavirus passes, and range opens up again i can test the load, than validate in the mountains at 500 yds.
Thanks again,
Homer
Rich Coyle
Platinum Member
If you start with a new rifle do you break it in first,?
Steve Davis
Administrator
Rich start another thread in the rifles forum about barrel break in. Should bring a lot of opinions.
freediver111
New Member
So just want to make sure I get this right.
My order of 213 Hammer Hunters arrived Monday. Very slick bullets, nice handiwork by the way.
Hodgdon gives me 63-70 grains of H4350 for a 210 bullet in a .338. One other reference I’ve seen bumped it closer to 71 grains max.
Do I load 8 rounds from 63-70 and shoot over my magneto speed, looking for velocities and pressure sign, or do you load say at 68 and go up to 71 or even a touch higher looking more for where that max really is for your rifle by checking for pressure signs?
I normally do a 10 round Satterlee ladder test taking listed max, say 70 or 71, and loading down in .3 increments to find a node.
If Hodgdon says 70 is max, and moving a 210 at 2850, I’d be perfectly happy with that. I never reload to push speed limits or pressure limits, really just looking for a very accurate load moving a 210-225 in the 2800-2900 FPS range. I reload for a lot of calibers and never push the limits. Just not comfortable going beyond book data. Thanks for any clarification.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I personally would start at 68 and load in one grain increments until you find pressure and then back up one grain and shoot a group and work from there, no longer than I have been shooting these bullets I would guess you will be over book max safely but as always use caution
Steve Davis
Administrator
I generally do push the limits.
Depending on how good you are at reading pressure signs, work up like ButterBean said. Our bullets will show less pressure than conventional bullets so published start loads for 210g will be good to go.
littlebighorn
Full Member
Wow,
I wish I would have had this great info a year or two ago! I would have saved myself a lot of trips to the range trying to work up different loads.
So Steve, do you find certain powders performing consistently well in certain cartridges? ( i.e. 4831 in a 270...etc.) Or is it more random for each barrel?
And once you find a powder that performs in your rifle with one bullet brand and weight, does it usually perform well with Hammers with comparable weights?
mbruce
Platinum Member
It's not as random as it seems, but you get random answers because experiences vary.
I look at "equipment lists" to get definitive answers to questions like these. F-class shooters don't disclose equipment used for matches. But national benchrest matches require you to disclose equipment
Here is what you'll find at the national level: (info is found on published match results)
Group 100/200 yards winners ALWAYS uses N133
600 yards winners ALWAYS use H4895 or Varget
Group 1,000 winners ALWAYS uses H4895
Score 100/200 winners ALWAYS uses H4198 (Score folks mostly use a .30 cal bullet)
What we find is that the powders listed above always work for the cartridges used in those matches. There are no exceptions.
It's so convincing that shooters will throw away barrels if they will not shoot with those powders.
So one can say that maybe you don't have to try 6 different powders...
Steve Davis
Administrator
We have our go to loads. About the time we think it is the be all end all, we have a rifle that doesn't like it but likes something else.
If you have a powder combo with another bullet that works well, I would start with it.
doverpack12
New Member
Steve
Do you have a target neck tension? I have the ability to adjust neck tension so figured that may make the process easier or harder if you started in the right or wrong range.
bojo34
Full Member
"With a rifle that is new to us the 1st thing we do is clean it until there is no copper from other bullets in the barrel."
Steve,
Do you then take a fouling shot or two with some hack loads prior to starting your ladder? Or, do you feel the vel with the clean barrel should be close enough?
Thanks, I'm a rookie here just about to shoot the first ladder.
bojo34
Full Member
After thinking a bit more forget the question. If ladder starts conservatively enough the velo on the first few rounds shouldn't really matter anyway.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
.003-.004 seems to be optimum with the Hammers
buckys
New Member
Steve, thanks for posting this. A couple of questions.
First, you mention you generally pick the faster powders from something like Nosler load data to start with. I assume that you are looking at velocity and not burn rate?
Second, shooting in Texas, I prefer to stay really safe on pressure so I don't have to limit my shooting to 8-9 months of the year. Just curious if you have seen any variability for a given powder's temp sensitivity for Hammer bullets vs. any others? My assumption is, no, that it is still dominated by basic thermodynamics and pressure vs. temperature will change similarly enough to make no practical difference?
Thanks, Shane
littlebighorn
Full Member
Hey buckys,
I'm pretty sure Steve is referring to burn rate rather than velocity. That is especially true for the Absolute Hunters. They need faster powders to perform up to their potential, but since they are so recently introduced, we still don't have "standard load data" to help us know where to start and with what.
I hear your concerns about temp issues, especially where you live! My experience has been that Hammers don't add or subtract to that variable.
I'm still a newby at this as well, but I hope that helps.
jgippig
New Member
Hey folks, newbie from SE Idaho. Anyone know the minimum seating depth? I'm looking for something like min of 1 caliper or min of 4 power bands. I'll be loading 83 gr Hunters .224's in a 220 swift. Currently running 90 gr Berger VLD's .020" jump at 3244 fps. What I really want to know is if I can get that close to the lands with the Hammers? Thanks!
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Seat them to the last PDR grove and let her eat, Hammers are basically insensitive to seating depth
antelopedundee
New Member
What is the slowest powder to use with the 123 gr AH in a 6.5-06 or 6.5-06AI? I see that some use Reloder 23. Is Reloder 19 or 22 even better?
How about something like IMR4955?
Is loading data between Hammers and Barnes sort of interchangeable for the same bullet weight?
I sort of have a goal that with new or lightly used barrels I wold prefer to use powders that have a copper fouling reducer added.
I can comfortably shoot about 60 grains of IMR7977 with a 127 LRX with hardly any pressure.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
The load data is not interchangeable, The Hammers have far less PDR
antelopedundee
New Member
On average how many rounds to reach an acceptable load and do you do any cleaning during the proce
tgr
New Member
Would love to hear what Steve says. I like to run a double ladder.
I clean, shoot a fowler shot, then run the ladder.
Clean and fowler again, then run the ladder from top to bottom.
Top of the ladder is determined same as Steve mentioned, pressure signs then minus one. 8-10 shots per ladder depending on where you find pressure.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
8-10 rounds and no need to clean
harperc
Global Moderator
My son in laws low grade .270 and optic was 12 rounds to sub MOA, and deer on ground.
Pretty typical.
antelopedundee
New Member
Actually this question was directed to Steve about his load development for hire process. FWIW when I was out the other day I fired 17 rounds [all using a powder with a copper fouling reducer added] with the last 6 rounds being loads with Abs Hammers. When done I ran 4 tight patches with some 70% rubbing alcohol down the warm barrel and got most of the black out. My usual regimen after I get home is to run a loose patch with some Accelerator on it down the bore followed by a loose patch with some Wipe Out/Patch Out on it. After 5 minutes or so I run a tight patch with some rubbing alcohol on it. 2 such treatments failed to remove any noticeable copper or powder foulig.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I don't understand what you are getting at "On average how many rounds to reach an acceptable load and do you do any cleaning during the process?" Was the question. On the Average 8-10 rounds to find a load with no cleaning is about the norm with Hammers was my answer, how and when you clean is a entirely different subject as well as a personal preference
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Hammer Hunters and Absolute Hammers are totally different bullets. You can start load development with Hunters by referring to similar (or lighter) weight bullets and go from there. Absolutes are a totally different animal. They have MUCH less resistance and require MUCH faster powders to achieve velocity.
There is a dedicated group of shooters who are developing load data and sharing it. Go to Long Range Hunting, look up the thread Absolute Hammer Load Data, and go to post #2. The load data spreadsheet is now over 40 pages long, sorted by bullet weight. (Update 2/2023: Load data is now also posted on this Forum. the load data spreadsheets are both now over 100 pages of data each. )
Enjoy!
choprzrul
Junior Member
I am new to Hammer bullets and have ordered 50 (103gr Hunters) to play with in my 257 Roberts. They are due to arrive Monday! Here are the basics for my rifle and reloading:
Ruger M77 tang safety with a 22" heavy sporter 1:9 Bartlein barrel with 5R rifling.
New Nosler +P brass
Primer choices: 210, 210M, 215, 215M, BR2, 9 1/2, WLR, WLRM
Powder choices: I have many options on hand from Alliant, Hodgdon, IMR, Norma, Ramshot, and Winchester
Max magazine length: 3.385" so I have tons of room to play with OAL
I have the ability to prime and load rounds while at the range, so I will have flexibility to do load development....but I ordered only 50 of the 103gr Hammer Hunters, so that is my limiting factor to find an accurate load with good velocities.
My goal is to find a very accurate load that will effectively kill mule and whitetail deer out to my personal max limit of 500 yards....so given the .203 G7 BC on that 103gr, I'm gonna need at least 3000fps at the muzzle, but it would be really nice to have some extra margin of fps...
In reading Steve's original post in this thread (quoted below) regarding load development, does this set of condensed steps seem to accurately reflect Steve's intent?
1. clean the rifle bore
2. proper bullet choice for rate of twist
3. consult load data and choose uncompressed load and faster burning powders
4. use magnum primers
5. set COAL to 0.020" off rifling
6. load rounds in 1gr increments and shoot until finding signs of pressure
7. shoot all load ladder rounds at same target and watch for MOA group?? Even though 200fps difference? I'm not getting this part?
8. once pressure is found, back off and shoot 3 rounds for group size and note ES...should be under 30fps
9. change seating depth if group sizes aren't right. resuce COAL 0.015" at a time and test.
10. if the group sizes aren't there, change powder and try again.
Does the above sound correct? I'm used to using Quickload to find 2 or 3 powders that will work and develop good velocities and then going out and shooting 3 shot groups in a load ladder. I then look for low SD, group sizes, and velocity increases per 1% charge increment to indicate accuracy nodes. The Hammer process Steve outlines seems quite a bit simpler.
I noticed that Hammer bullets are included in the June 2021 Quickload update that I have installed.
Using the included QL data for the 103gr Hunter, and guessing at COAL (2.850") based upon other bullets' COAL numbers I've checked in that rifle, I'm finding QL says RL16 gives 3157fps, Hunter gives 3122fps, N204 gives 3083fps, I4895 gives 3087fps, H4350 3051fps, CFE223 gives 3107fps, H4895 gives 3058fps. These numbers are using 257 Roberts +P 58,000psi as a maximum pressure.
From a fps, decoppering, and temp stability standpoint, it looks like a +P max of 45.1gr of RL16 might be my max charge reference point.
My plan: I will load initial testing rounds of one each at 43.6, 44.1, 44.6, 45.1, 45.6, and 46.1 to see if I encounter pressure signs. If not, I'll load +0.5gr increases one at a time until I see pressure signs. Once I find pressure, I'll back off 1 grain and shoot 3 for ES, SD, and group size data.
Does all of this seem like a legit plan? Please chime in and offer insight, experiences, and and suggestions. I'm brand new to Hammers (they haven't even arrived in the mail yet), so I'm in need of guidance.
Kevin
riceman
Global Moderator
You pretty much have it.
You might find that these sleeker mono bullets have difficulty to get within that .020 that you are trying to get to.
Unless you have alot of room in that magazine. Hammers do not really care if they need to jump, sometimes they have to jump alot! Most of the time you'll be limited to magazine length.
Quickload, I don't use it. I've heard, to use it as a general tool? Like another manual, not a Bible.
Good luck keep us updated on your journey
STX
Full Member
choprzrul, you shouldn’t have any trouble getting over 3000 fps…….I’m getting 3150 with a 22” bbl Ruger tang safety 257 Bob with the 98 gr Hammers.
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Choprzrul,
Please be sure to post your end results. Don't have that bullet in the spreadsheet for the 257 Rbts yet.
Thanks,
G
n8
New Member
When you say primers aren’t as much a concern do you mean you’re ok with continuing to climb even after flat primers? I’m trying to find the top end on a .25-06 rem out of a kimber with a 24” barrel. Using CCI large magnum primers, new nosier brass, 4831SC behind 98gr shock hammers. I started at 48 grains moving .5 a time and I’m up to 62 grains. Still no heavy bolt lift. Measuring cases and they don’t seem to be stretching. Don’t know if I would get any marks due to claw extractor? I’m getting 3600fps over a cheapo Caldwell chronograph. Primers were flat at about 53ish grains. Recoil feels significantly higher compared to my old loads (53 grains of 7828 behind Berger 115). I don’t know if I’m just being a wimp but I’m getting nervous. At the same time I want to maximize the potential of these after all the time/money spent switching to hammers.
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Look at the Hammer Hunter Load Data under Reloading. You can compare your data to others' for reference.
harperc
Global Moderator
Nov 11, 2021 at 1:21pm gltaylor, cbjr, and 2 more like thisQuoteEditlikePost OptionsPost by harperc on Nov 11, 2021 at 1:21pm
n8 Avatar
Nov 10, 2021 at 6:20pm n8 said:
When you say primers aren’t as much a concern do you mean you’re ok with continuing to climb even after flat primers?
I’m trying to find the top end on a .25-06 rem out of a kimber with a 24” barrel. Using CCI large magnum primers, new nosier brass, 4831SC behind 98gr shock hammers. I started at 48 grains moving .5 a time and I’m up to 62 grains. Still no heavy bolt lift. Measuring cases and they don’t seem to be stretching.
I’m getting 3600fps over a cheapo Caldwell chronograph. Primers were flat at about 53ish grains.
I don’t know if I’m just being a wimp but I’m getting nervous. At the same time I want to maximize the potential of these after all the time/money spent switching to hammers.
Nothing wrong with being a wimp when reloading. If you're nervous always pause.
A chronograph can be the best indicator of what's happening. You're getting almost 300 fps more than I see listed in other sources. I'd sit on that for a few rounds and see how the brass responds loose primer pockets etc.
Your case has to be pretty full at 62 grains, and you're 8 grains over what Hodgdon list as their max load for H4831sc, and 100 grain bullets. IMR 4831 maxed out about 10 grains less for Nosler.
When you say measuring cases, are you speaking of length, or case head expansion. Do fired cases rechamber readily?
n8
New Member
Hello Harperc! Yes cases are pretty full at 62 grains. I haven’t tried rechambering any fired cases. I’ll try that this weekend. What am I looking out for? The measurements I’m taking are of the case length with a pair of calipers. I guess I assumed the only direction they can go is to stretch out longer. Thanks!
philcox
New Member
This seems to "easy". My question about this, in particular, it "What projectile weights are they using?" Do "they" use these powders regardless of the projectile weight and calibur? Just curious, as this would make life much simpler
dean
New Member
Would there be a benefit/consequence to running the ladder test with the gas block closed on my ar?
joe16
Platinum Member
Great question. I've got no clue but I would think you would only do that if that's how you're going to shoot it.
Watching this one closely.
This place is awesome
dean
New Member
I've been reading through I think every thread here on reloading practices and it got me to wondering. Couple caveats here too: this is the first ar I've had with an adjustable gas block, the first ar I've reloaded for and I"m speculating here just for the sake of finding pressure.
With the gas block closed, it acts like a bolt gun. I have not experimented with velocity changes open vs closed (might be an idea). I have a magneto speed v3 and private 100yd range.
Would it show pressure signs like sticky bolt more clearly since the gas is not unlocking the bolt?
Would the velocity change be so great as to give "false" pressure signs?
Would having my suppressor on/off change the readings enough to matter?
Food for thought, if anyone here has experimented with this I'd love to know what you found, thanks in advance.
joe16
Platinum Member
Dean
These are all great questions. You might be asking them in the wrong area. The AR guys might not come across these questions posted in this thread.
If you create a thread in the reloading or ballistics sections, something like AR-10 308 questions. You might get quicker answers from the guys that know about this subject.
Keep asking Dean keep asking
dean
New Member
Thanks for the help Joe, that didn't even cross my mind.
Administrator
(Originally posted 2/29/2020)
@ingwe asked me if I would start a thread detailing how we do load development, so here goes.
With a rifle that is new to us the 1st thing we do is clean it until there is no copper from other bullets in the barrel. I recommend this anytime you are changing bullets. Once the rifle is clean then I check all the optic mounting screws and action screws to make sure they are torqued to the proper level.
Now that the rifle is ready to go and we have a bullet chosen that is proper for the twist rate of the barrel ( I prefer to use bullets that are running with a higher than the min required twist for the given bullet for hunting), I will look at published load data for a like weight bullet from a couple of sources. I generally find what I need from Nosler and Hodgdon data. Any of the published load manuals will give you a good start load since the Hammers will show less pressure than conventional bullets. I like to look for a powder that does not show a compressed load. Since the pure copper bullets will be a bit longer than the equivalent weight lead bullet, compressed loads generally will not get enough powder in the case to reach top end. This will also depend on the seating depth of the bullet. If you have a mag and throat that will allow you to seat longer that will help with case capacity. As a general rule the Hammers will like powders on the faster side of normal powders listed for the bullet weight.
We prefer to use magnum primers with most cartridges. I am not as adamant about this as I used to be. Some smaller cartridges will show early pressure signs with the mag primer. If that happens then just switch to a standard primer.
Now that we have our ingredients picked out I figure out the longest COAL that will function properly in the rifle without touching the lands. If I can reach the lands I will start 20 thou off. There is no good reason to touch the lands particularly in a hunting rifle. A primer failure can stick a bullet in the bore and ruin you trophy of a lifetime. I know this personally. The method to this madness is simply that if I have to make a seating depth change to get good accuracy, there is only one way to go.
Now we are ready to light a fire in it. I always load with a chronograph and log muzzle vel with each shot. We use the Labradar now, but the Magneto Speed will also do you very well. I run a modified ladder to find my load. I like to load develop at a min 200y. Everything looks good at 100Y. I aim each shot at the same spot shooting as well as I can. I watch the target and expect to see pretty close to an moa target even if we have spread of vel over 200 fps. At this point the target is not the most important thing though. As long as we are not shooting all over the place. If it is bad I just change to a diff powder. No point in making the rifle like what I want it to. We run our ladder one shot one charge at a time looking for pressure. In most cartridges I load up in 1g increments. Small ones in smaller increments. Using the muzzle vel, bolt lift, ejector marks on the case head, and the flattening of the primer. I don't as much attention to the primer as the other indicators. Vel is a very good indicator of pressure. You can't have monster vel without pressure. The Hammers will show 50 to 100 fps higher vel, in most rifles, over the load data. Nosler data is pretty hot data and will line up pretty close with the Hammers. I like to find pressure and back away from it. That way I know where it is. This is kind of a "feel" thing as to how much to back off when you find pressure. Some brass is soft and shows more presser than some of the tough brass. If I am getting an ejector mark in Nosler or Norma brass I don't worry about it as much as I do with ADG or Lapua brass. As we work this ladder up, I like to see nice predictable increases in vel with each increase in charge weight. If it is random in the vel as it works up I usually change to a diff powder. Some times at low pressure though it is not as predictable.
Once we have found the top end, I load a few of this load and shoot them for group and to check to see that the ES is not goofy. For a hunting rifle under 1000y ES under 30 fps will be fine. I like it to be less for sure and usually I can not get myself to settle on a load unless it is under 20 fps ES. Particularly if it is not punching solid sub moa. At this point we are usually done with the load development and just zero the rifle to go out and confirm it at long range. Once in a while we will get a rifle that is not shooting as well as we expect. If that is the case then I will start seating deeper about 15 thou at a time, or a quarter turn on the seater die. Almost always within two or three adjustments the group will tighten right up. If I am making seating depth adjustments I don't bother shooting more than two shots if they are not good. Can't make a bad group better by shooting at it more times! Now zero dead nuts and you are ready to go confirm drops. Very rarely do we shoot over 20 rounds to finish a load that is solid sub moa. I strive for .5 moa and really don't spend time and resources to try and get better than that. I would rather go out and hunt rocks with my .5 moa rifle than try to get it tighter. Most rifles we are done in less than 15 shots and zeroed, ready to go confirm drops at long range.
I think that pretty much covers it. You can try this method with other brand bullets as well. They probably won't be quite as easy as the Hammers, but it is still a good process to save time and money.
I will add that we take all of our loading equipment to the range and load one at a time through the loading process. Makes it easy to make changes on the fly.
thebeeman
New Member
Aloha Steve,
Thanks for the information.
When you are fine tuning a load, do you ever try match primers?
Homer
Steve Davis
Administrator
If the rifle is not liking what is going on we generally switch the powder. Sometimes we will swap to another primer. We have learned not to try to force a rifle to like what we want. We have quite a few diff primers on hand.
thebeeman
New Member
Makes senses to not force a rifle too shoot what it don’t like.
the load i have shoots pretty good now, just want to see what i can squeeze outta her. I’ll try match primer and may bee bullet depth and see what happens.
i think in our previous emails, you recommended a powder which nobody stocks out here. So I’m working with H1000 for now which we have year around.
Hopefully, once the Coronavirus passes, and range opens up again i can test the load, than validate in the mountains at 500 yds.
Thanks again,
Homer
Rich Coyle
Platinum Member
If you start with a new rifle do you break it in first,?
Steve Davis
Administrator
Rich start another thread in the rifles forum about barrel break in. Should bring a lot of opinions.
freediver111
New Member
So just want to make sure I get this right.
My order of 213 Hammer Hunters arrived Monday. Very slick bullets, nice handiwork by the way.
Hodgdon gives me 63-70 grains of H4350 for a 210 bullet in a .338. One other reference I’ve seen bumped it closer to 71 grains max.
Do I load 8 rounds from 63-70 and shoot over my magneto speed, looking for velocities and pressure sign, or do you load say at 68 and go up to 71 or even a touch higher looking more for where that max really is for your rifle by checking for pressure signs?
I normally do a 10 round Satterlee ladder test taking listed max, say 70 or 71, and loading down in .3 increments to find a node.
If Hodgdon says 70 is max, and moving a 210 at 2850, I’d be perfectly happy with that. I never reload to push speed limits or pressure limits, really just looking for a very accurate load moving a 210-225 in the 2800-2900 FPS range. I reload for a lot of calibers and never push the limits. Just not comfortable going beyond book data. Thanks for any clarification.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I personally would start at 68 and load in one grain increments until you find pressure and then back up one grain and shoot a group and work from there, no longer than I have been shooting these bullets I would guess you will be over book max safely but as always use caution
Steve Davis
Administrator
I generally do push the limits.
Depending on how good you are at reading pressure signs, work up like ButterBean said. Our bullets will show less pressure than conventional bullets so published start loads for 210g will be good to go.
littlebighorn
Full Member
Wow,
I wish I would have had this great info a year or two ago! I would have saved myself a lot of trips to the range trying to work up different loads.
So Steve, do you find certain powders performing consistently well in certain cartridges? ( i.e. 4831 in a 270...etc.) Or is it more random for each barrel?
And once you find a powder that performs in your rifle with one bullet brand and weight, does it usually perform well with Hammers with comparable weights?
mbruce
Platinum Member
It's not as random as it seems, but you get random answers because experiences vary.
I look at "equipment lists" to get definitive answers to questions like these. F-class shooters don't disclose equipment used for matches. But national benchrest matches require you to disclose equipment
Here is what you'll find at the national level: (info is found on published match results)
Group 100/200 yards winners ALWAYS uses N133
600 yards winners ALWAYS use H4895 or Varget
Group 1,000 winners ALWAYS uses H4895
Score 100/200 winners ALWAYS uses H4198 (Score folks mostly use a .30 cal bullet)
What we find is that the powders listed above always work for the cartridges used in those matches. There are no exceptions.
It's so convincing that shooters will throw away barrels if they will not shoot with those powders.
So one can say that maybe you don't have to try 6 different powders...
Steve Davis
Administrator
We have our go to loads. About the time we think it is the be all end all, we have a rifle that doesn't like it but likes something else.
If you have a powder combo with another bullet that works well, I would start with it.
doverpack12
New Member
Steve
Do you have a target neck tension? I have the ability to adjust neck tension so figured that may make the process easier or harder if you started in the right or wrong range.
bojo34
Full Member
"With a rifle that is new to us the 1st thing we do is clean it until there is no copper from other bullets in the barrel."
Steve,
Do you then take a fouling shot or two with some hack loads prior to starting your ladder? Or, do you feel the vel with the clean barrel should be close enough?
Thanks, I'm a rookie here just about to shoot the first ladder.
bojo34
Full Member
After thinking a bit more forget the question. If ladder starts conservatively enough the velo on the first few rounds shouldn't really matter anyway.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
.003-.004 seems to be optimum with the Hammers
buckys
New Member
Steve, thanks for posting this. A couple of questions.
First, you mention you generally pick the faster powders from something like Nosler load data to start with. I assume that you are looking at velocity and not burn rate?
Second, shooting in Texas, I prefer to stay really safe on pressure so I don't have to limit my shooting to 8-9 months of the year. Just curious if you have seen any variability for a given powder's temp sensitivity for Hammer bullets vs. any others? My assumption is, no, that it is still dominated by basic thermodynamics and pressure vs. temperature will change similarly enough to make no practical difference?
Thanks, Shane
littlebighorn
Full Member
Hey buckys,
I'm pretty sure Steve is referring to burn rate rather than velocity. That is especially true for the Absolute Hunters. They need faster powders to perform up to their potential, but since they are so recently introduced, we still don't have "standard load data" to help us know where to start and with what.
I hear your concerns about temp issues, especially where you live! My experience has been that Hammers don't add or subtract to that variable.
I'm still a newby at this as well, but I hope that helps.
jgippig
New Member
Hey folks, newbie from SE Idaho. Anyone know the minimum seating depth? I'm looking for something like min of 1 caliper or min of 4 power bands. I'll be loading 83 gr Hunters .224's in a 220 swift. Currently running 90 gr Berger VLD's .020" jump at 3244 fps. What I really want to know is if I can get that close to the lands with the Hammers? Thanks!
ButterBean
Platinum Member
Seat them to the last PDR grove and let her eat, Hammers are basically insensitive to seating depth
antelopedundee
New Member
What is the slowest powder to use with the 123 gr AH in a 6.5-06 or 6.5-06AI? I see that some use Reloder 23. Is Reloder 19 or 22 even better?
How about something like IMR4955?
Is loading data between Hammers and Barnes sort of interchangeable for the same bullet weight?
I sort of have a goal that with new or lightly used barrels I wold prefer to use powders that have a copper fouling reducer added.
I can comfortably shoot about 60 grains of IMR7977 with a 127 LRX with hardly any pressure.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
The load data is not interchangeable, The Hammers have far less PDR
antelopedundee
New Member
On average how many rounds to reach an acceptable load and do you do any cleaning during the proce
tgr
New Member
Would love to hear what Steve says. I like to run a double ladder.
I clean, shoot a fowler shot, then run the ladder.
Clean and fowler again, then run the ladder from top to bottom.
Top of the ladder is determined same as Steve mentioned, pressure signs then minus one. 8-10 shots per ladder depending on where you find pressure.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
8-10 rounds and no need to clean
harperc
Global Moderator
My son in laws low grade .270 and optic was 12 rounds to sub MOA, and deer on ground.
Pretty typical.
antelopedundee
New Member
Actually this question was directed to Steve about his load development for hire process. FWIW when I was out the other day I fired 17 rounds [all using a powder with a copper fouling reducer added] with the last 6 rounds being loads with Abs Hammers. When done I ran 4 tight patches with some 70% rubbing alcohol down the warm barrel and got most of the black out. My usual regimen after I get home is to run a loose patch with some Accelerator on it down the bore followed by a loose patch with some Wipe Out/Patch Out on it. After 5 minutes or so I run a tight patch with some rubbing alcohol on it. 2 such treatments failed to remove any noticeable copper or powder foulig.
ButterBean
Platinum Member
I don't understand what you are getting at "On average how many rounds to reach an acceptable load and do you do any cleaning during the process?" Was the question. On the Average 8-10 rounds to find a load with no cleaning is about the norm with Hammers was my answer, how and when you clean is a entirely different subject as well as a personal preference
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Hammer Hunters and Absolute Hammers are totally different bullets. You can start load development with Hunters by referring to similar (or lighter) weight bullets and go from there. Absolutes are a totally different animal. They have MUCH less resistance and require MUCH faster powders to achieve velocity.
There is a dedicated group of shooters who are developing load data and sharing it. Go to Long Range Hunting, look up the thread Absolute Hammer Load Data, and go to post #2. The load data spreadsheet is now over 40 pages long, sorted by bullet weight. (Update 2/2023: Load data is now also posted on this Forum. the load data spreadsheets are both now over 100 pages of data each. )
Enjoy!
choprzrul
Junior Member
I am new to Hammer bullets and have ordered 50 (103gr Hunters) to play with in my 257 Roberts. They are due to arrive Monday! Here are the basics for my rifle and reloading:
Ruger M77 tang safety with a 22" heavy sporter 1:9 Bartlein barrel with 5R rifling.
New Nosler +P brass
Primer choices: 210, 210M, 215, 215M, BR2, 9 1/2, WLR, WLRM
Powder choices: I have many options on hand from Alliant, Hodgdon, IMR, Norma, Ramshot, and Winchester
Max magazine length: 3.385" so I have tons of room to play with OAL
I have the ability to prime and load rounds while at the range, so I will have flexibility to do load development....but I ordered only 50 of the 103gr Hammer Hunters, so that is my limiting factor to find an accurate load with good velocities.
My goal is to find a very accurate load that will effectively kill mule and whitetail deer out to my personal max limit of 500 yards....so given the .203 G7 BC on that 103gr, I'm gonna need at least 3000fps at the muzzle, but it would be really nice to have some extra margin of fps...
In reading Steve's original post in this thread (quoted below) regarding load development, does this set of condensed steps seem to accurately reflect Steve's intent?
1. clean the rifle bore
2. proper bullet choice for rate of twist
3. consult load data and choose uncompressed load and faster burning powders
4. use magnum primers
5. set COAL to 0.020" off rifling
6. load rounds in 1gr increments and shoot until finding signs of pressure
7. shoot all load ladder rounds at same target and watch for MOA group?? Even though 200fps difference? I'm not getting this part?
8. once pressure is found, back off and shoot 3 rounds for group size and note ES...should be under 30fps
9. change seating depth if group sizes aren't right. resuce COAL 0.015" at a time and test.
10. if the group sizes aren't there, change powder and try again.
Does the above sound correct? I'm used to using Quickload to find 2 or 3 powders that will work and develop good velocities and then going out and shooting 3 shot groups in a load ladder. I then look for low SD, group sizes, and velocity increases per 1% charge increment to indicate accuracy nodes. The Hammer process Steve outlines seems quite a bit simpler.
I noticed that Hammer bullets are included in the June 2021 Quickload update that I have installed.
Using the included QL data for the 103gr Hunter, and guessing at COAL (2.850") based upon other bullets' COAL numbers I've checked in that rifle, I'm finding QL says RL16 gives 3157fps, Hunter gives 3122fps, N204 gives 3083fps, I4895 gives 3087fps, H4350 3051fps, CFE223 gives 3107fps, H4895 gives 3058fps. These numbers are using 257 Roberts +P 58,000psi as a maximum pressure.
From a fps, decoppering, and temp stability standpoint, it looks like a +P max of 45.1gr of RL16 might be my max charge reference point.
My plan: I will load initial testing rounds of one each at 43.6, 44.1, 44.6, 45.1, 45.6, and 46.1 to see if I encounter pressure signs. If not, I'll load +0.5gr increases one at a time until I see pressure signs. Once I find pressure, I'll back off 1 grain and shoot 3 for ES, SD, and group size data.
Does all of this seem like a legit plan? Please chime in and offer insight, experiences, and and suggestions. I'm brand new to Hammers (they haven't even arrived in the mail yet), so I'm in need of guidance.
Kevin
riceman
Global Moderator
You pretty much have it.
You might find that these sleeker mono bullets have difficulty to get within that .020 that you are trying to get to.
Unless you have alot of room in that magazine. Hammers do not really care if they need to jump, sometimes they have to jump alot! Most of the time you'll be limited to magazine length.
Quickload, I don't use it. I've heard, to use it as a general tool? Like another manual, not a Bible.
Good luck keep us updated on your journey
STX
Full Member
choprzrul, you shouldn’t have any trouble getting over 3000 fps…….I’m getting 3150 with a 22” bbl Ruger tang safety 257 Bob with the 98 gr Hammers.
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Choprzrul,
Please be sure to post your end results. Don't have that bullet in the spreadsheet for the 257 Rbts yet.
Thanks,
G
n8
New Member
When you say primers aren’t as much a concern do you mean you’re ok with continuing to climb even after flat primers? I’m trying to find the top end on a .25-06 rem out of a kimber with a 24” barrel. Using CCI large magnum primers, new nosier brass, 4831SC behind 98gr shock hammers. I started at 48 grains moving .5 a time and I’m up to 62 grains. Still no heavy bolt lift. Measuring cases and they don’t seem to be stretching. Don’t know if I would get any marks due to claw extractor? I’m getting 3600fps over a cheapo Caldwell chronograph. Primers were flat at about 53ish grains. Recoil feels significantly higher compared to my old loads (53 grains of 7828 behind Berger 115). I don’t know if I’m just being a wimp but I’m getting nervous. At the same time I want to maximize the potential of these after all the time/money spent switching to hammers.
gltaylor
Global Moderator
Look at the Hammer Hunter Load Data under Reloading. You can compare your data to others' for reference.
harperc
Global Moderator
Nov 11, 2021 at 1:21pm gltaylor, cbjr, and 2 more like thisQuoteEditlikePost OptionsPost by harperc on Nov 11, 2021 at 1:21pm
n8 Avatar
Nov 10, 2021 at 6:20pm n8 said:
When you say primers aren’t as much a concern do you mean you’re ok with continuing to climb even after flat primers?
I’m trying to find the top end on a .25-06 rem out of a kimber with a 24” barrel. Using CCI large magnum primers, new nosier brass, 4831SC behind 98gr shock hammers. I started at 48 grains moving .5 a time and I’m up to 62 grains. Still no heavy bolt lift. Measuring cases and they don’t seem to be stretching.
I’m getting 3600fps over a cheapo Caldwell chronograph. Primers were flat at about 53ish grains.
I don’t know if I’m just being a wimp but I’m getting nervous. At the same time I want to maximize the potential of these after all the time/money spent switching to hammers.
Nothing wrong with being a wimp when reloading. If you're nervous always pause.
A chronograph can be the best indicator of what's happening. You're getting almost 300 fps more than I see listed in other sources. I'd sit on that for a few rounds and see how the brass responds loose primer pockets etc.
Your case has to be pretty full at 62 grains, and you're 8 grains over what Hodgdon list as their max load for H4831sc, and 100 grain bullets. IMR 4831 maxed out about 10 grains less for Nosler.
When you say measuring cases, are you speaking of length, or case head expansion. Do fired cases rechamber readily?
n8
New Member
Hello Harperc! Yes cases are pretty full at 62 grains. I haven’t tried rechambering any fired cases. I’ll try that this weekend. What am I looking out for? The measurements I’m taking are of the case length with a pair of calipers. I guess I assumed the only direction they can go is to stretch out longer. Thanks!
philcox
New Member
This seems to "easy". My question about this, in particular, it "What projectile weights are they using?" Do "they" use these powders regardless of the projectile weight and calibur? Just curious, as this would make life much simpler
dean
New Member
Would there be a benefit/consequence to running the ladder test with the gas block closed on my ar?
joe16
Platinum Member
Great question. I've got no clue but I would think you would only do that if that's how you're going to shoot it.
Watching this one closely.
This place is awesome
dean
New Member
I've been reading through I think every thread here on reloading practices and it got me to wondering. Couple caveats here too: this is the first ar I've had with an adjustable gas block, the first ar I've reloaded for and I"m speculating here just for the sake of finding pressure.
With the gas block closed, it acts like a bolt gun. I have not experimented with velocity changes open vs closed (might be an idea). I have a magneto speed v3 and private 100yd range.
Would it show pressure signs like sticky bolt more clearly since the gas is not unlocking the bolt?
Would the velocity change be so great as to give "false" pressure signs?
Would having my suppressor on/off change the readings enough to matter?
Food for thought, if anyone here has experimented with this I'd love to know what you found, thanks in advance.
joe16
Platinum Member
Dean
These are all great questions. You might be asking them in the wrong area. The AR guys might not come across these questions posted in this thread.
If you create a thread in the reloading or ballistics sections, something like AR-10 308 questions. You might get quicker answers from the guys that know about this subject.
Keep asking Dean keep asking
dean
New Member
Thanks for the help Joe, that didn't even cross my mind.
