Need Help, Attack on Copper

T

TheMoose

New member
I don't know which forum this post should be, so I picked this one. I would like to ask for help with my plan on attacking copper buildup in my rifles. I have reloaded for 59 years and have just had a terrible experience with a couple of rifles(both 270 Winchester) with extreme copper fouling buildup and loss of accuracy as fouling increased. I spent hours and many dollars trying to make a load for taking a bull elk last year... I even bought a new rifle out of frustration 3 months before the trip... but found out late that copper buildup was most likely the problem, not the rifles (the first a vintage Rem 700 Mtn rifle gifted to me by my late wife and the new one a Bergara B14. I did manage a clean one shot kill on a 5x5 in NM, but was completely frustrated with my ammo and rifle . I set out to solve the problem by attacking it head on and have taken some steps to win the copper war and ask for your insight and experience to see if I have my head up my south end and missing something obvious. So, here is where I am at:
1. Removed all traces of copper fouling from both rifles using Sweet's 7.62 and ThurroClean.
2. Purchased first order of Hammer HHT's..(122grHHT for 270 recommended by Steve Davis)
3. Researched copper fouling, impact and reduction measures
4. Purchased HBN kit for coating bullets
5. Purchased Tubb Dust for treating powder
6. Purchased Tubb's Final Finish to lap barrels of one or both rifles

Nothing is set in stone at this time, but I want to take a logical approach something like coating some powder and bullets, firing and looking for copper buildup, accuracy and ease in cleaning..and holding off on the lapping as a last resort. I want to do the testing with the bullets (Barnes) that I have been struggling with for the last year. Perhaps the Hammers would solve or reduce my rifles's issues by themselves, but improving copper reduction thru use of better powder or bullet coating to mitigate copper can't be a bad thing. Fro my research, Hammers should also help. Please don't think that I'm trying to just go for gimmick's to fix my problem. I am pissed and want to end it....the bullet coating or powder additive can be started or stopped at any time and are relatively cheap investments made if they will keep me shooting longer(and happier) and cleaning(or mining) less... I welcome your thoughts and suggestions.

Kindest regards,

TheMoose Somewhere West of the Blue Hole
 
Was the build up from Hammer Bullets? If so, that’s an oddity.
Very little engraving with Hammer Bullets. I’d try not cleaning and allow it to get to an equilibrium. Then see how many hundred rounds it goes before losing accuracy.
 
No,No,No! I have never shot Hammers.... you misunderstood my post... the bullets I had problems with were all Barnes......I purchased Hammers and joined the forum to learn more about them to be another solution to my copper buildup battle
 
I think your grossly overthinking things. I would personally work backwards to attack your problem. Before I treated / coated powders and bullets....I would first see if the problem is resolved with Hammer Bullets.

1. Clean all the copper out of your barrels.
2. Load and shoot Hammers.

If the accuracy is improved and you are again happy with these rifles performance, sell the barnes and move on. If the problem is not fixed...well then go down the rabbit hole your about to go down.

Seams like a lot of work to prove bullets fowl barrels....some more than others. I shoot Hammers in quite a few rifles now. Most don't get copper fowling, however I do have one that fowls pretty easy. No big deal....I just clean it every 40-50 rounds and keep on shooting.
 
I find that the copper comes out fairly easy, I use shooters choice mc7, barnes cr10, or similar cleaners. Just patches and bronze brush usually takes care of the copper. If I notice the cleaning rod hopping/ hard to stroke through, I then use a tiny bit of JB bore paste with patches, or nylon brush (never bronze brush). Usually this helps loosen the carbon build up and I then follow with regular cleaner / patches. I usually only need to use the JB every 300-400 rounds.
 
@TheMoose - what I am going to suggest might shock the senses, but I suggest in constructive guidance. Ironically, copper aids precision until it becomes "fouling/build-up". I don't think most guys ever get to the point of actual copper fouling to effect precision. I think by the time that happens the barrel has been neglected of carbon build up cleaning and that is what makes precision go South.

1. The easy button for all of this is to use the Thorroclean system, using a bronze brush for the application 20-25 passes, flush out completely with the Thorroflush and be done. Whatever is still in the bore can stay in there. No need to bore scope.

*Use a bore scope to verify copper removal progress on these next nuggets:

2. If you don't like that advice, and are wanting to start clean slate with zero copper in the bore, the best way I found was to plug the breach and with muzzle to the sky, fill the bore with Hoppes Black Copper solvent. Why Hoppes Black? Because it's not harsh enough to hurt the bore, but will remove all copper after an overnight sit. I would chuck the gun up in a vise with rubber jaws. Chamber plugs can be got at Patriot Valley Arms "The Plug" or if you have muzzle threads, "The Muzzle Jimmy". Using the Jimmy, you would have the barrel pointed to the ground and fill from the breach. Your choice of either method does the trick. (I don't do this anymore because it isn't necessary after the Thorroclean)
3. If you didn't like that advice or method(s) you can use a variety of copper solvents with patches and bronze brush. Understand that copper will anneal/build a tolerance to a cleaner. So, to defeat this annealing(?) I found using high alcohol content 91-99% on a bronze brush with 6-10 passes would flush away residual copper solvent and rough up the surface of the remaining copper. This procedure done between each treatment of the copper solvent on a brush. (This is why people will get clean patches, but will still see copper in the bore with a bore scope. (I don't do this anymore because the Hoppes Black overnight sit eliminated all this work, and the Thorroclean system is the ticket)

On the Tubbs final finish kit. These are not designed to remedy a problem in the barrel. I spoke with the Tubb's folks a coupe times about this. The systems are designed to remove the micro tooling marks in custom competition chambers and bores. I've done the final finish kits and I am convinced it is a waste of time & money.

I think the HBN coated bullets would be of real benefit for a couple/few reasons. 1. Coating helps mimic "fouling shots" and keep initial shots same POI after a barrel cleaning. 2. Aids bullet release form the case mouth. 3. Maybe prevents this cold welding scare of late. I don't coat bullets, but look to get the same coating benefit from coating a clean bore with dry graphite. Couple ways to skin this cat, eh?
 
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Thanks very much for your insight. As you can guess, I like to "tinker" and explore ways to improve my equipment. I often tell people that I have two hobbies: hunting and getting ready to hunt... right now shooting is not on my immediate schedule with -6 F temps(ButterBean must be cold too)... I knew when I drafted this post that I would get a variety of approaches in response, that's what I needed... so thank you again. I appreciate the detailed responses...I have never tried JB&Kroil with bronze brushes but have used it with patched wrapped nylon brushes... I just got Dewey No Harm brushes in the mail Friday so I will keep that in mind when I need to clean thoroughly again.(In the shipment received I also got another pack of ThurroClean and ThurroFlush along with the bigger bottle of ThurroFlush.... In my research I think I saw that Steve Davis once considered coating Hammers with HBN...I had a very noticeable POI change with cold bore on Bergara and thought HBN could help and ease cleaning if not reducing copper or carbon fouling....
Kindest regards,

TheMoose Somewhere West of Frozen Blue Hole
 
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I am willing to bet you are going to be extremely surprised by the lack of copper fouling with hammers. The general experience is shoot with clean barrel, clean as needed to keep copper fouling to minimum which again will likely surprise. Then again if bore is like 50 grit then bets off!
 
I'm sure hoping you are right. I bought a box of 100 to give them and rifles a fair test. If they work as hoped I still think that I want to be able to shoot other bullets with the same success. u Perhaps I should have asked others for their experience with other brands to gauge what's out there that may also work. At my age I 'm pretty sure my hour glass will run out of sand before I quit playing with stuff like this.

Thank you for your thoughts. Hoping there are some warmer days coming in a few weeks for testing.. just finished my annealing and sizing
 
Update: I am finding success. IMO copper is not building up nearly as fast with the HHT's as compared to Barnes. I am in early stages of load development so I haven't tried shooting an extended string to see if & when accuracy may fall off and if copper is excessive. I have been cleaning thoroughly after each range session. I fire 3 fouling shots before load testing. Thursday's results were encouraging testing 56.7,57,57.3 and 57.5 grs H4350, starline brass,122HHT's with 1/8 crimp and Rem 9 1/2 primers
Accuracy for 3 shot groups were: 1.27,0.74,0.88 and 1.20 in my 270 Bergara B14. Thinking of testing more crimp. I know at 75 I can't shoot as well as I once did, so my accuracy results my not be reliable due to my inconstancy on the trigger.

Thanks for your help...I'm gettin there!
Kindest regards,
TheMoose
 
BFD said:
@TheMoose - what I am going to suggest might shock the senses, but I suggest in constructive guidance. Ironically, copper aids precision until it becomes "fouling/build-up". I don't think most guys ever get to the point of actual copper fouling to effect precision. I think by the time that happens the barrel has been neglected of carbon build up cleaning and that is what makes precision go South.

1. The easy button for all of this is to use the Thorroclean system, using a bronze brush for the application 20-25 passes, flush out completely with the Thorroflush and be done. Whatever is still in the bore can stay in there. No need to bore scope.

*Use a bore scope to verify copper removal progress on these next nuggets:

2. If you don't like that advice, and are wanting to start clean slate with zero copper in the bore, the best way I found was to plug the breach and with muzzle to the sky, fill the bore with Hoppes Black Copper solvent. Why Hoppes Black? Because it's not harsh enough to hurt the bore, but will remove all copper after an overnight sit. I would chuck the gun up in a vise with rubber jaws. Chamber plugs can be got at Patriot Valley Arms "The Plug" or if you have muzzle threads, "The Muzzle Jimmy". Using the Jimmy, you would have the barrel pointed to the ground and fill from the breach. Your choice of either method does the trick. (I don't do this anymore because it isn't necessary after the Thorroclean)
3. If you didn't like that advice or method(s) you can use a variety of copper solvents with patches and bronze brush. Understand that copper will anneal/build a tolerance to a cleaner. So, to defeat this annealing(?) I found using high alcohol content 91-99% on a bronze brush with 6-10 passes would flush away residual copper solvent and rough up the surface of the remaining copper. This procedure done between each treatment of the copper solvent on a brush. (This is why people will get clean patches, but will still see copper in the bore with a bore scope. (I don't do this anymore because the Hoppes Black overnight sit eliminated all this work, and the Thorroclean system is the ticket)

On the Tubbs final finish kit. These are not designed to remedy a problem in the barrel. I spoke with the Tubb's folks a coupe times about this. The systems are designed to remove the micro tooling marks in custom competition chambers and bores. I've done the final finish kits and I am convinced it is a waste of time & money.

I think the HBN coated bullets would be of real benefit for a couple/few reasons. 1. Coating helps mimic "fouling shots" and keep initial shots same POI after a barrel cleaning. 2. Aids bullet release form the case mouth. 3. Maybe prevents this cold welding scare of late. I don't coat bullets, but look to get the same coating benefit from coating a clean bore with dry graphite. Coupe ways to skin this cat, eh?
Click to expand...
^^^^^^ This! Worked great for me!
 
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Thanks for your thoughts. I am using ThorroClean and flush. I do understand your logic and cannot disagree. But I also saw the deteriorating accuracy( perhaps it's just the barrel breaking in). It is getting better...Once I settle on my load I do want to shoot several rounds, keeping an eye for changes in accuracy.

Thanks again
 
@TheMoose ,
You should find that Hammers copper foul very little if at all. I originally abandoned Barnes because of excessive copper fouling.
Normal cleaning with brush & solvents every 100 or so shots should be sufficient for Hammers.
Carbon fouling is usually more of a concern than copper fouling with Hammers. Jm2cw
 
Update: I am now quite satisfied with the B14 and the 122gr HHT's. I found "the load" that works for me. Copper fouling is minimal. Call me a believer in Hammer bullets. Thank you one and all for your guidance and patience.

Kindest regards,
TheMoose
 
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