Quinlan/Neville Load Development Thoughts?

[Koda]

In my opinion, initial group size (at an acceptable level to you) is best determined with coarse tests with primer/powder combinations.
If I can’t get groups under 1" in 10 shots (ladder), I switch to another powder.
"Tuning" a load means making small changes to get small results.
For me, at least, that means going from 0.7-8" groups to maybe 0.4-0.5" groups. Jm2cw.
This assumes your barrel/rifle is capable of shooting "small" groups.

This helps answer my questions, thank you.

Sounds like in your experience fine tuning yields up to, say... 0.4moa improvement. So essentially we should be examining our initial rough (ladder) group size as a metric for switching powders/primers/bullet before fine tuning.

 

[gltaylor]

Yes. At least that's what I do.
Shoot a ladder. If 2 or 3 touch, that's where I focus.
If your initial ladder looks like a buckshot pattern, that one goes in scrap pile - and try another powder.
With most of my cartridges, I go up in whole grain increments.
At least with most Hammers, my ladder looks like an elongated ragged hole. That's when I Smile!
This one's gonna be easy peasy

 

[Koda]

Shoot a ladder. If 2 or 3 touch, that's where I focus.

An accuracy node within the pressure ladder?
Ive been wondering about this and was close to starting a thread on this (and another ladder observation).

It sounds like Ive found the connection to the article. Useful and will make me rethink my strategy for fine tuning my loads.

 

[LightTheTower]

This helps answer my questions, thank you.

Sounds like in your experience fine tuning yields up to, say... 0.4moa improvement. So essentially we should be examining our initial rough (ladder) group size as a metric for switching powders/primers/bullet before fine tuning.

For me, the fine tuning was exactly that. 0.3 to 0.4 moa. That’s why I like fine tuning at 200 yards or more… I can SEE the tuning working (or not).
I tried 7 different powders with the 131HHH in my 280. It really only liked RL19 and ACC 4350.

 

[Schmo]

I think the point is: a 1.5 moa (3 to 5 shot) group will only be worse if you shoot 10 to 30 shots, and it is unlikely that any amount of “tuning”, whether it be seating depth, crimp, neck tension, or even 0.1 to 0.2 grain charge variations, will improve the load significantly.
In this case, powder and or primer changes are the only things that might make THAT bullet shoot better in THAT gun.

You’re spot on here with what I was trying to say. I understand that some others already do this, so it’s probably not earth shattering to a lot of the experienced guys. It was a light bulb moment for me tho. I think Koda asked about which charge weight to pick. Miles Neville said on a medium or small cartridge, he would try 1 grain under book max, and if its a magnum, 2 grains under book max. I realize that is a lot harder to pin down with Hammers, but just clarifying that since Koda had asked the question. One other point they made as to seating depth: from their experience, if you’re going to play with depth, they move in increments of 10-15 thou. Maybe this too is common knowledge, but it was a question that I had.

 

[gltaylor]

For a perfect example, go to the 22 Creedmore post just put up. When your ladder starts out as almost a bughole for 8-10 shots, you're 90% home already!

For the post above (here), I agree. I usually make changes of seating depth of 20 thousandths (20-40-60 jump, etc.)

 

[hand skills]

Miles Neville said on a medium or small cartridge, he would try 1 grain under book max, and if its a magnum, 2 grains under book max. I realize that is a lot harder to pin down with Hammers, but just clarifying...

Not really;

-find p.max with a given set of components/chamber

-back off one grain

-happy shooting

I learned this from @Steve Davis - it was a paradigm shift to say the least!

 

[Koda]

For a perfect example, go to the 22 Creedmore post just put up. When your ladder starts out as almost a bughole for 8-10 shots, you're 90% home already!

Being new to Hammers, Ive so far never had an initial pressure ladder shoot under 1.5moa. My assumption has always been this was pretty good for a pressure ladder since each shot is increasing in charge weight, correlates with how I always hear Hammers are easy to develope with. Note: although Ive loaded some cup and core bullets Ive never completed a load development with them, I quickly switched to Hammers so I dont have anything there to compare with.

I suspect limited powder selection also is playing a large part in my learning experience. I got into handloading in the peak of the latest ammo crunch and covid supply chain issues. I was lucky to find the powder I came up with and literally did not have a choice other than I knew it was rated for my calibers. Same for primers. Nothing was my first choice. I say this to note... I cant just switch components if my pressure ladder doesnt shoot a sub moa node.

 

[BigGame]

I've continued listening to several of the Hornady podcasts relevant to load development (#50, 52, 60, 121...). It is interesting to hear how experiments have turned out when you have the resources of a full ballistics lab and budget to play with, so I appreciate them. I'd still love to hear results from comparable labs running comparable tests, if anyone is aware of such. I have an F-class rifle and the method of load development described in these podcasts really flies in the face of common F-class load development, but it's also hard to ignore. Again, food for thought and further experimentation.

One clear message coming out of these podcasts is that if the bullet-powder-barrel combination you're testing is not very close to your acceptable accuracy standard after a 10 or 20 shot group, stop experimenting and change the powder (or bullet) because no other refinement you attempt is going to change the needle much (likely only a tenth or two). Caveat: assumes all other mechanical considerations are in order.

 

[gltaylor]

Being new to Hammers, Ive so far never had an initial pressure ladder shoot under 1.5moa. My assumption has always been this was pretty good for a pressure ladder since each shot is increasing in charge weight, correlates with how I always hear Hammers are easy to develope with. Note: although Ive loaded some cup and core bullets Ive never completed a load development with them, I quickly switched to Hammers so I dont have anything there to compare with.

I suspect limited powder selection also is playing a large part in my learning experience. I got into handloading in the peak of the latest ammo crunch and covid supply chain issues. I was lucky to find the powder I came up with and literally did not have a choice other than I knew it was rated for my calibers. Same for primers. Nothing was my first choice. I say this to note... I cant just switch components if my pressure ladder doesnt shoot a sub moa node.

@Koda,
I understand your dilemma. One of the (few) benefits of being old and having loaded 50 some years is a large variety of powders in the cabinet. I would guess I've got 20 or more different powders. Don't load small stuff much anymore (6BR, 6X47, 308 etc. So those powders are in shorter supply. Plenty of choices for '06 and above size.
Same for primers. Got LR and LR Mag in at least 4 different brands, 2 brands in Small Rif and SRMag - so swapping/changing is easier than for you. Also have large quantities of favorites (Varget, RL26, H4350, etc). Got lots of slow powders, which I don't use much anymore since Hammers.
You'll get there. It'll just take time.
One of the BIG benefits of the load data on this Forum (Reloading) is that it saves you components and time.

 

[Schmo]

@gltaylor,
I’ve been in the same boat as @Koda. Very limited components on hand, and a tight budget to purchase other components. I’ve been trying to load for a 7mm-08 Tikka, and having issues. Brad has been a huge help. One point he made was that I shouldn’t be shooting for groups off a tripod, and that a butterfly style bag is the way to go. Anyway, I’ve been able to gather components lately. So now I have lots of powder options for that cartridge. Primer options are still tight for me. I’ve got Rem 9-1/2 on hand, and a very limited quantity of Federal and CCI. As you said, it is the component options that are the limiting factor.

 

[Koda]

Theres also a learning curve for new handloaders. Ive only been handloading for 2 years now and learning on my own with no mentor and with only one component set complicates things. Plus the budget to buy during supply chain issues... when only one powder shows up, you dont just buy a pound to test you buy 8lbs. Or you will never see that powder again if it works out.

Ive learned a ton from forum threads like this one. I like that I was finally able to connect the article to how I handload. It makes sense and Im currently thinking about how this will play into my fine tuning my 280ai load. Im going to finish a seating depth test but if that doesnt do it I might switch to a different Hammer. But my initial load development process will be different now.

 

[Schmo]

Hey @gltaylor, any chance you’d tell us at what distance you start your Hammers off the lands? I know Steve recommends .020”, but know that other guys here run at .040 or .050.

 

[gltaylor]

Hey @gltaylor, any chance you’d tell us at what distance you start your Hammers off the lands? I know Steve recommends .020”, but know that other guys here run at .040 or .050.

I almost always start at 20 thousandths jump. Furthest jump so far is 159 thousandths!

 

[Schmo]

Got it. Thanks!