It might not be known to most, but I'm proud to announce that Les and I are both venturing down the road of the 45-90s. He lives in Idaho and I live in Florida and we both without any collaboration ordered the CVA 45-70 approximately 2 weeks ago. These rifles were taken to the gunsmiths and have been rechambered to 45-90, well at least mine has he's waiting in line for his to get chambered. What I think is fascinating is we are choosing a completely different angle of approach, at least at first, there might be some changes to this as time goes on.
I will let Les introduce his rifle and motives himself.
As for me it came down to one simple principal, I get to "add more gun powder" safely and gain more velocity! Case capacity is the name of the game and this was a very simple process to gain more case capacity.
A search was done for brass, as I thought this would be the hardest of the components to chase down (boy was I wrong). I located 60 pieces in Utah and when they arrived I quickly shipped les half of them for his project. As it turned out the chamber reamer was the difficult piece in my puzzle. I ended up purchasing one from a company in Oregon that they had on their Shelf since 2006. My lucky day actually with renting a reamer and paying my gunsmith it worked out cheaper to purchase the reamer (195$)and give it to Bob. He wants to build one too!! The reamer arrived Thursday and Saturday I was interrupted from a good football game with news that my rifle was finished and I could come pick it up, needless to say I hit record on the football game.
Ive also had the brass for about a week now and it is not totally finished I had surgery August 22nd on my right hand and work is slow I still have yet to put the primers in the cases they are trimmed though. The chamber ring that I purchased was for a 45-90 Winchester chamber I was pleasantly surprised to see that this ring gave me .200 free bore. So instead of trimming my 45-70 brass by .070 to get it to chamber with a hammer profiled bullet. I get to seat it out to its maximum functionality, if that makes any sense and not lose any case capacity
Once I get to scope mounted I will post pictures of the rifle and the load, I'm waiting on the pills to come back from California. I will be shooting the modified 250 shock hammer (190 grain) and my goal is to top 3200!! Only time will tell.
Here is just an example of the increase in case capacity. The top case is a 45-90 with a 450 grain cast bullet loaded out to touch the rifling. The bottom case is a 45-70 trimmed to accept the modified 250 to function in a Marlin 45-70
Joe - Thanks for starting this thread. Yes I too have a CVA Scout getting turned into a 45/90. My goal is on the other end of the spectrum. I want to shoot the 404 shock hammer. I'd really like to take my elk with it this year. No matter how hard I tried with load data and other possible scenarios, I just couldn't get the 45/70 to work on paper, let alone in the field for reliable shedding of the pedals or the velocity that I wanted. The 45/90 has more case capacity than the 458 Win Mag. I see no reason why I can't get a proper load that will push the 404 at 2300 feet per second. According to my two ballistic tables this makes it a 300 yard rifle using the recommended 1800 fps as a good benchmark for reliable pedal shedding. Realistically with the 3mm hole I would risk a 450 yard shot with a velocity of 1600 fps. I've yet to get out and test minimum velocities. There is a lot of fun work left to do once I get my rifle back from the gunsmith. Much more to come, but the 404 sitting on top of the 45/90 just looks right! I know Joe is going for max speed with his tricked out 190's, but I've got a secondary goal and that is the 250 grain Hammers at 3,000fps. We are looking forward to sharing our journey and invite anyone who wants to, come and join us. Those 404's have lead me down a fun trail! Had to get a custom rifle just to make them work the way I want. I love this place. It has brought the fun back into shooting for me.
Ok now the norm
Gday fellas
I’m intrigued in so many ways & let’s leave the corruption out of this ( yes Les joes bad enough but you are adding fuel to the fire )
I like how 2 guys are coming from different applications & work together to get the potential maximum for ea of their situations
Well done guys it’s a pleasure to WATCH!!!
Farleg - Joe and I have been in a lot of private conversation about powders. At this point it is conversations about what we have found has worked in the past. How do you translate experience to low friction Hammer Bullets? There isn't much data for the 45/90 and modern pills. Joe and me are coming to some theoretical idea of what we are doing. At this point, keeping it private I think is wise. If I said, "I think I'll dump XX grains of YY powder behind XYZ bullet." someone is going to trying it and get hurt. I'm sure when we get some real world data it will be shared. I did get some data from a guy who is getting over 3,000 fps with a 225 grain Lehigh bullet. So I don't think we are too far into the weeds. I'm fairly confident after talking to Joe as to which powder I'm starting with and I'm pretty sure Joe has settled on his beginning point too. We also have what I think are realistic goals too. So thanks.
I know that I’m kinda twisted, but I wonder what you could get with a case full of FFFg Swiss and 1/8” (0.125) compression using a Hammer. Maybe use Hodgdon’s 777 FFFg or American Pioneer for ease of cleaning. I’d do it myself, but SWMBO has given me the stink eye and reminder that he safe is full.
Sep 13, 2022 at 10:06pmles said:
Farleg - Joe and I have been in a lot of private conversation about powders. At this point it is conversations about what we have found has worked in the past. How do you translate experience to low friction Hammer Bullets? There isn't much data for the 45/90 and modern pills. Joe and me are coming to some theoretical idea of what we are doing. At this point, keeping it private I think is wise. If I said, "I think I'll dump XX grains of YY powder behind XYZ bullet." someone is going to trying it and get hurt. I'm sure when we get some real world data it will be shared. I did get some data from a guy who is getting over 3,000 fps with a 225 grain Lehigh bullet. So I don't think we are too far into the weeds. I'm fairly confident after talking to Joe as to which powder I'm starting with and I'm pretty sure Joe has settled on his beginning point too. We also have what I think are realistic goals too. So thanks.
Hammer Bullets make you THINK! I love this place.
Gday Les
I kinda agree with keeping it private especially with this new frontier you guys are playing with
but man on the edge of my seat so don’t stay private for to long lol
I’ve been crunching numbers on both your potential combos & impressive to say the least
so glad you’re THINKING as that’s how we learn , move the bar & help others
yes pioneers are needed for the above
thankyou sir as for joe I notice he’s been quiet waiting for his nail polish to dry but I’m sure he will eventually come to the party
Posts: 3,800
Gday modoc
don’t know about twisted but I’m going to get my translator
please no offence it’s I’ve lived a sheltered life no doubt to you guys that will no doubt understand exactly what you mean , myself No idea
could you please let me in on what SWMBO means if it’s safe for public viewing
cheers
To use your vernacular Farleg, G’day! SWMBO equals She Who Must Be Obeyed. I use this toung in cheek since she tolerates my hobbies while I do the same. As to the safe, supposedly there is no room for more rifles or shotguns at this time, but we shall see.
As for th FFFg, that is the designation for a grade of the Holy Black (black Powder) used in muzzle loading firearms and trunk to be pushed out by this fad of “Smokeless Powder. If you haven’t guessed, about a third of my shooting/hunting is on the primitive side. . Or dealing with obscure or obsolete cartridges.
Posts: 307
Modoc, I was thinking about Black Powder this morning. I was reading the original load for the 45/90 Winchester was a 400 grain bullet at 2000 feet per second. I do really enjoy my smoke poles too. One thing I miss after moving to Idaho from Oregon is hunting with blackpowder. Idaho doesn't offer as many special hunts for blackpowder as Oregon did. I've got a good supply of triple 7! I just need to get my gun from the gunsmith.
Farleg - I have five pills loaded and ready to go with my preliminary thoughts. I'm not sure if Joe has his 190 grain pills yet.
Even though I don't have my gun back yet, the work on the project continues. I'd say Joe and I are heading into the totally unknown, but I have found a guy who has been pushing the 45/90 and he has been willing to share some data. He is getting 2250 with the 400 grain Speer, so I'm very confident that my goal of 2300 with the 404 Hammer is within reach. It has been nice to have a starting point for both his light bullet project and also for my heavy bullet. I have several ideas on load development and have settled on a couple of powders to start with. I'm hoping my gun will be done tomorrow.
Thanks Farleg for being an on-site Aussie to double check the Bertram Brass we are using! That gives me peace of mind!
It will be interesting to see how the muzzle brake and recoil pad handle 4,746 foot pounds of energy.
I received phenomenal news yesterday from California!! The 190s are on their way
A big shout out goes to Riceman for a big assist on this. There's no way this project would have moved forward if I would have had to of skimmed those bullets down myself.
We are going to put some Zoomie in this old Soldiers Cheerios!! And possibly a few other things that I've got in mind
Les I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised with the recoil reduction on that setup. That being said from my experience with muzzle brakes and big calibers there's a point where recoil overrides the muzzle brake. Unless you plan on changing that kdf out. Oh how I am looking forward to your results.
I called the gunsmith yesterday and he didn't know why the reamer hadn't arrived yet. He said I'm at the head of the list when it gets here. Meanwhile, Joe is sending me data as he works on loads. I'm jealous. I was playing around this morning and one can get a 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott 22 inch barrel from JDJ for the Encore platform. One thing I love about this place is at least I (and Joe) haven't been able to see if any of you have been making funny faces at us for reaming our 45/70's out to 45/90. One thing I am learning is that extra case capacity of the 45/90 opens up a whole world of opportunities for added velocity without excessive pressures. Using the CVA Scout platform, it is cheaper to do this conversion that buying a JDJ barrel. If you have never enjoyed the simplicity of a single shot, you don't know what you have been missing. Henry has a 45/70 single shot too. The reality is unless you have full auto, everything else is a single shot. It is just a matter of how that second bullet is delivered to the barrel.
I'm still planning on running some tests on the 404 at low speed and in all likelihood will do that today. Life has gotten in the way of my upland game bird hunt that was planned for today 6 months ago. Yes, I am whining. So since I've been given lemons, I'm hoping to make some lemonade. If I get good pedal separation from my tests, it will make my combo a 400 yard rifle.
It's hard having a new rifle and not shoot it! So while waiting on my bullets to arrive from California, I figured I'd do some light bullet pressure test with n120 powder. I ran the powder column all the way to 71 grains (with room for 7 more grains) with no pressure signs and achieved a velocity of 2842 with this 230 grain FMJ. N120 is going to be too slow for the 190 hammer when it arrives but this at least gives me somewhere to start.
I normally like starting with the slowest powder that I've decided to try and now I'm going to move to reloader 7 and skip over the 4198s at least for now and see what reloader 7 will do before I move onto the AA1680. Only the chronograph can tell now.
Really looking forward to shooting some of these 190 hammers when they arrive!!
Les, yeah there's a few of them rolling their eyes and shaking their heads. We get these things cranking like we think they're going to, we'll have some converts.
I’m loving it fellas!
45-70 to 45-90 conversion is the best idea I’ve heard in ages!
I used to have one of those rifles in 44 mag which was a bit of fun but this is a whole other level!
I’m a Big fan of single shots and if i didn’t have my 9.3x74 I think I would be a massive copycat and get on board with this!
My gunsmith mate does have a 45-120 reamer… hmmm
Sep 17, 2022 at 6:02pmtja500 said:
I’m loving it fellas!
45-70 to 45-90 conversion is the best idea I’ve heard in ages!
I used to have one of those rifles in 44 mag which was a bit of fun but this is a whole other level!
I’m a Big fan of single shots and if i didn’t have my 9.3x74 I think I would be a massive copycat and get on board with this!
My gunsmith mate does have a 45-120 reamer… hmmm
Sep 17, 2022 at 6:02pmtja500 said:
I’m a Big fan of single shots and if i didn’t have my 9.3x74 I think I would be a massive copycat and get on board with this!
My gunsmith mate does have a 45-120 reamer… hmmm
Used to be a group of folks chambering #'1's in .45-120. Monster performance.
)
. Or dealing with obscure or obsolete cartridges.
