Types of Rifling - Does it make a difference?

les

les

Hammer Time Executive member
We talk a lot about powders and the uniqueness of Hammer Bullets. Stop and think for a moment of what happens to the bullet once it leaves the case. With a traditional cup and core bullet, we are talking about a relatively soft bullet engaging the rifling and obliterating to seal the bullet to the barrel. So in reality we are using cup and core perfected rifling to shoot our copper mono bullets. I asked this question on another thread, but I think it deserves it's own discussion.

Is there a rifling type that is better than another for Hammer Bullets? Has anyone played with the microgroove rifling of Marlin vintage? How about the Shilen ratchet rifling? Button rifling vs cut rifling? etc.

I wonder if we could get away with less grooves. How about a two groove barrel? Less friction = more speed!

I have a gain twist barrel on my Remington 788 in 308.. It begins at 1-16 and ends at a 1-12. This weekend I am going to compare velocities with my Winchester 88 with a factory barrel. I know it isn't totally apples vs apples.
 
I've been wondering the same thing for a while. I've been eyeing a 4-groove Krieger and 3-groove Lilja for my next build. That being said, the Shilen ratchet rifling is intriguing for sure.
 

Rifling: Does Type Matter?

I'm starting down the road to build a new rifle that will utilize the WTO Switchlug for 3 different barrels. So....I'm going to be buying 3 Bartlein barrels. Given the design of the Hammer bullets, and what I perceive to be less barrel friction due to that design....does it matter what type of...
hammerbullets.com

Just had this chat. Any reason for a new thread on the exact same topic?
 
Meatbuck - Yes. I'm thinking we need to look at what the barrel is doing to the bullet. The other discussion which I just read does not talk about theory much, but just what is out there. Personal preferences are fun, but I like to look at "What is happening?" What about the old Lancaster oval bore rifling? What about the rifling that is in my HK 40 SW. I don't remember what they call it anymore, but it doesn't have lands and grooves. I wonder how much we are leaving on the table with using refined cup and core technology?

What about gain-twist barrels? I have a load of the older Barnes 140 grain bullets that I used to hunt with. I special ordered a gain twist barrel from Montana Barrel Co. over 20 years ago to see if I could gain velocity. In the factory barrel, I hunted with an accurate load pushing the 140 grain Barnes at 2750 fps. I shot the same load out of the gain-twist at 2982. It came from the same lot so I am comparing apples to apples. I gained over 200 fps. That is significant.

I would love to see a design that maximized copper bullets only.
 
I have a 2 groove 30-06 that shoots 131 Hammers very well. I also have a soft spot for the 3 groove Liljas. It seems common sense will tell you that odd numbered grooves will be an advantage but to be honest, I've never noticed any difference between them and my 4 and 6 groove barrels.

I always wanted to try a gain twist barrel but somehow manage to not buy one.

Regards
 
I'm not sure, but would a non-lead projectile obturate enough to seal on an oval bore?
I always wanted to try a 5c barrel, but it doesn't seem like they will ever be around anymore.
 
cbjr said:
I'm not sure, but would a non-lead projectile obturate enough to seal on an oval bore?
I always wanted to try a 5c barrel, but it doesn't seem like they will ever be around anymore.
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I’m imagining the major diameter of the oval would have to be.308 for a 30 cal and minor diameter somewhere between.300 and.302 but this is just a guess 🤷‍♂️. In this setup the bullet wouldn’t obturate it would in fact be swaged down by the minor diameter sides of the bore, which is really the same that rifling does when you think about it

Problem is that virtually nobody has done it, I think there is a Russian company that makes a hunting “rifle “ in some type of 9.3mm cartridge to stay within a Russian law restricting civilians to smoothbore weapons only. The oval bore is technically smooth. A few African double guns used it around the time of the muzzleloader to cartridge transition as well some of the early prototype designs that eventually turned into the smle .303 had oval bore as well.
 
Here’s a gun pic, this rifle started life as a muzzleloader, one of the guys competing for the contract to make these was Mr. Lancaster of oval bore fame, but he obviously lost the chance at a contract because these say enfield on the side!
 

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The totality of the barrel performance is something I keep thinking is the next big revelation in shooting technology. The throat in combination to the rifling is the concept of exploration. Serengeti type throat with gain twist? The real problem is having a barrel design to accommodate a range of bullet composition, weights and design. I now struggle to order a new barrel to accommodate what I expect out of a cartridge. We can close eyes and just go SAAMI but what fun is that? I have a 700 LA with GS right now that plan is 06. I talked to @Mountainman yesterday on wide range of topics and now I am befuddled on what the heck to do for this barrel. @Farleg didn't help either in call since he offered up so many suggestions! All good! Between those 2 guys, I need about 10 switch barrels!😂 The barrel question decision at this time in technology comes down to what bullet weight, what bullet design, what velocity, what throat, what type of rifling, what twist, what kind of twist..argghgggg!!!!
 
Anyone out there tried a Shilen ratchet barrel with Hammers? I hear Brian is the techie guy of our dynamic duo at Hammer. I'd love to hear from Steve and Brian on their thoughts on number and type of grooves and lands that optimize Hammer Bullets. Since Shilen really promotes the ratchet for 22 rimfire target rifles, I kind of have my doubts about that design with Hammers. Lilja has several offerings in 3 groove. Anyone out there shooting a Lilja 3 groove? What are your thoughts on this subject?
 
les said:
Anyone out there tried a Shilen ratchet barrel with Hammers? I hear Brian is the techie guy of our dynamic duo at Hammer. I'd love to hear from Steve and Brian on their thoughts on number and type of grooves and lands that optimize Hammer Bullets. Since Shilen really promotes the ratchet for 22 rimfire target rifles, I kind of have my doubts about that design with Hammers. Lilja has several offerings in 3 groove. Anyone out there shooting a Lilja 3 groove? What are your thoughts on this subject?
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Les, meatbuck and his friend both use Lilja 3 groove in there 270wsm.
It looked good down the tube when we ran borescope down it. But I have no other experience with them.
He may not have seen this you might pm him🤷‍♂️
 
riceman said:
Les, meatbuck and his friend both use Lilja 3 groove in there 270wsm.
It looked good down the tube when we ran borescope down it. But I have no other experience with them.
He may not have seen this you might pm him🤷‍♂️
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I said all I know about them in the attached thread from my post (somewhere) above.

Pics attached there too of the 156hh through the 3g. 👍🏻
 
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