What would you pick?

G

Gerald Dilgard

Hammer Time Executive member
A 308 for a Bison Harvest. I have used a 168 TTSX in the past. Results were ok. Nothing special as My wife dropped it with her Creedmoor and took the spine off the skull. Neck shots tend to be 100 yards or less. Have used the 143 LH on deer sized game and the results were amazing as far as damage. The other one I was thinking about was the 150PH. We shoot for the spine and I tend to think the the LH may do more damage on a neck shot. What do you guys think? No I'm not buying another rifle.
 
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I’m hoping the 154HHT performs as expected from a 308win. Though I don’t think the 154 was tested down under I think the tip will be more consistent on that bison hair and hide. This is based off of farleg and the hammer boys results on buff. Yes pure speculation on your bison and this pill. And some of you know what happened the last time I speculated.

Good luck
Kneedeep
 
kneedeep said:
I’m hoping the 154HHT performs as expected from a 308win. Though I don’t think the 154 was tested down under I think the tip will be more consistent on that bison hair and hide. This is based off of farleg and the hammer boys results on buff. Yes pure speculation on your bison and this pill. And some of you know what happened the last time I speculated.

Good luck
Kneedeep
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My idea is that the massive hollow point on that LH would open on contact and the base would hit the spine. If it were to miss the spine, the pedals alone would do some horrible damage inside that neck. Veins and arteries getting blown apart and a windpipe with a hole in it causes some issues too. There was a huge "shock area" on the side of the deer I shot. Bigger than a basketball. The hide was no longer connected to the ribs. How this would compare to a Power Hammer, I don't know. Anybody use one in gel? How quick does it open?
 
Gday Gerald
Let’s give the speculator a little slack as he’s in a world of his own lately 😜& I’ll leave that muppet to explain his adventures lol but we still love him even though he didn’t think anyone cared 😂😉

Moving forward Let’s break down what’s needed

Hair Hide
Then
Required Penetration length To the cns in this case the neck
& enough momentum to break those vertebrae ( ok guys yes energy lol & Gerald I’m not a fan of ftLbs of energy as it’s crap but I need to get in first before I hear about it lol)

So fairly easy on paper to give us the most consistent results for what you seek
1/ a accurate combo
2/ the most consistent projectile ( weaknesses need to be assessed)
3/ as wide wound channel as possible for the depth required

So that’s it & easy right

My thoughts are the following
1/ only load development will give the individual that but historically it really don’t matter as hammers are so accurate so I’ve got no preference yet

2/ the hp variety are the smaller the hp the greater chance of nose over or plugging
Now incorporate that with the hair that the same can occur as above now only a small chance of happening yep totally get that but still a chance then add the matted hair full of dirt or like that is of a dry nature under the correct conditions which those hp varieties need h20 to work properly

Then you’ve got that already plugged hp in the hht 😉 yet that pill doesn’t seem to be as reliant on the h20 as the others & can’t nose over
So on number 2/ I’m giving it to the hht

3/ now the easy one if we are talking same caliber as the shanks all the same diameter so makes no difference right 🤔
Except we need to watch the petal pattern along with the speed to which these will be impacted @
So the 100 ish gr pills out as they just lack the ability & the ability starts @ the 124 hh & goes upto whatever your twist will run
So now it’s down to how fast you can push ea pill @ & more importantly it’s impact speed to get a idea of what we are searching for
So let’s start off & thinking you will better placed with impacts above the 2700 mark so I’d assume that would leave you with the pills upto including the 150 ish
So on that base all we are left with is the petal patterns that stay close to the shank for @ least 8-12 inches taking into account slight angles
Now most of those pills in that range will accomodate that so still no winner here
So let’s move to the smack we can put on the critter or this case the bison’s neck & the LH has that part but I’m only going to go the 143 LH as the 120LH is just not in the running imo as the 124hh is where I started the line from previous results on big bones

So number 3 is so close for me but the LH has more up it’s Sleeve yet would basically be same impact except the 151AH but even that potential extra impact with that pill I’m not sold it would be enough
The 154hht also has the potential to give us that smack on the critter but I have trouble until I see it in action ( I tell you what I’ll load up a couple & head out now & smack a few critters & report back then with a very basic idea )
So for now I’m staying with the 143LH

So out of the 3 points above we have

one that’s upto you
One that’s for the hht
One that’s for the LH

& on those I’m fairly sure both would be good & in all honesty I take reliability as my number 1 priority as a weakness that potentially can happen is more likely to happen on a bison as it has way more potential resistances than we are used to with thin skin game
Pigs as a example sometimes show why we need to look @ potential issues like hard cake mud ( samba another good one ) that just messes pills up yet the hht seem immune to that

& for that reason I’ll give my vote to the 154 hht but man you guys need a lighter hht 😉🤔🤣
Catch you lot soon with a couple splat factor decisions lol
Cheers
 
Gerald. Just out of curiosity where does this hunt take place? I have one coming up this fall as well on the Fort Peck Reservation. Last year my son harvested a bull with the 160 HH out of his 06 and it worked as expected. I plan on using the 160 HH out of my Win mag this year.
 
Gday
Ok 154 hht initial thoughts
Brian got this right 😇

Both wallaby around 2800 impact
Not bad for a work up load & sight in lol
100 % on centre mass first one to make sure rifle was still Moa of wallaby next
One more accurately placed shot & smaller critter

Same trait on this hht they are opening quickly yet have a better ability of the petals staying closer to the shank & nice shapecharge on the preliminary results ( I think the 6.5 125 has a better bubble 🤔 )
& same skull can within a very short distance & @ 8 inches no petals have left the path of the shank so need more results to confirm but I’d take the 154hht as it just covers more bases

so the first thing I’d do Gerald is get a few sample packs aim for a accurate load & something that would impact @2700 or above & do your job & get that knife out

The rest the hammer will do

Hope that helps & not confuses to much
Cheers
 
Farleg said:
something that would impact @2700 or above & do your job
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Depending on altitude (I used 800ft) Gerald would need to produce an accurate muzzle velocity above 2900fps in order to have an impact speed of 2700 @ 100 yards. That will be pushing his 308win depending on barrel length.

I ran an initial pressure ladder with the 154 in my 308win. 26” barrel that produced less than normal (slow) velocity with the 124 and 137. Thanks to a @riceman powder recommendation of CFE223 I ran the 154 up to 3017 with 49.0gr. A 5/8” group overall with this 4 shot ladder. I still need to find pressure.

So it might be possible for Gerald to hit Farleg’s recommended impact with this combo.

Kneedeep
 
Gerald Dilgard said:
No I'm not buying another rifle.
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Gerald - I would go with the 168 HHT. I wonder how many on the forum have been up close and personal with a bison? I've been within 10 yards of several in Yellowstone. They are huge! I like your commitment Gerald. There is an old saying, "Beware of the guy who shoots only one gun." The idea behind that saying is they really know their gun and the round they are shooting. Wow Farleg and Kneedeep gave much more detailed advice. I'm just thinking that Bigger bullet will have more momentum to get through the neck.

H'm, I'm thinking I ought to look at a Bison hunt. The 45/90 with the 404 Powerhammer is talking to me.
 
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The one discussion I have read time and again on bison states similar language. Their winter hair and heavy hide adds another dimension to bullet terminal performance that is unlike any other animal. Add in @Farleg comment about mud, dirt, wallows, and just crap matted into hair the bullet needs to have better controlled expansion to get through and then do its job. This is where I think a HHT will shine a little better getting to your target point in animal. Just my 2¢.
 
Rausch said:
Gerald. Just out of curiosity where does this hunt take place? I have one coming up this fall as well on the Fort Peck Reservation. Last year my son harvested a bull with the 160 HH out of his 06 and it worked as expected. I plan on using the 160 HH out of my Win mag this year.
Click to expand...
This is a hunting ranch in PA near the NY border.
 
Rausch said:
Gerald. Just out of curiosity where does this hunt take place? I have one coming up this fall as well on the Fort Peck Reservation. Last year my son harvested a bull with the 160 HH out of his 06 and it worked as expected. I plan on using the 160 HH out of my Win mag this year.
Click to expand...
This is a hunting ranch in PA near the NY border.
Farleg said:
Gday
Ok 154 hht initial thoughts
Brian got this right 😇

Both wallaby around 2800 impact
Not bad for a work up load & sight in lol
100 % on centre mass first one to make sure rifle was still Moa of wallaby next
One more accurately placed shot & smaller critter

Same trait on this hht they are opening quickly yet have a better ability of the petals staying closer to the shank & nice shapecharge on the preliminary results ( I think the 6.5 125 has a better bubble 🤔 )
& same skull can within a very short distance & @ 8 inches no petals have left the path of the shank so need more results to confirm but I’d take the 154hht as it just covers more bases

so the first thing I’d do Gerald is get a few sample packs aim for a accurate load & something that would impact @2700 or above & do your job & get that knife out

The rest the hammer will do

Hope that helps & not confuses to much
Cheers
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Thank You so much. I run the 143 LH over 46 of TAC. To about 3100 fps from my 22 inch 1:10 twist. I know this may upset some, but my wife made an instant kill on one last fall with a 6.5CM and a 127LRX over 42 of H4350. Took the spine off the base of the skull. Lights out. DRT Not a kick, nothing.
 
kneedeep said:
Two words “sectional density“

Kneedeep
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Gday kneedeep

You’ve got me stumped on how to reply to that without sounding like a d-ck

So I’ll try this
I think balance ,shapecharge, bubble is the way forward as SD dosent relate as well if we take it & put that it in the 375 cal 277/8 gr hht on what it can do
Cheers
 
Gday Gerald
With those velocities obtainable in you 308 & the 143
Your going to have good wound channels to your range & those shank weights will definitely do the job
A sample pack with the 154hht would settle my curiosity as where you can get that to & then a more detailed approach on groups would be my final answer before I committed to a pill
The rest is easy 😇
Cheers
 
Farleg said:
Gday kneedeep

You’ve got me stumped on how to reply to that without sounding like a d-ck

So I’ll try this
I think balance ,shapecharge, bubble is the way forward as SD dosent relate as well if we take it & put that it in the 375 cal 277/8 gr hht on what it can do
Cheers
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Gday Farleg

I knew you couldn’t pass by that comment. 😁 I’ll explain my tongue and cheek comment a little.

We all say “there’s no replacement for displacement“ So why wouldn’t the larger diameter 308/154 create a better bubble than the 264/125? It’s obviously a larger pill all the way around, diameter and weight. So one explanation would be velocity. Was your impact velocity of the 264/125 significantly higher than the impact velocity of the 154?

If so then this could explain your comment of a better bubble with the 264/125. But if I remember correctly you were shooting the 264/125 out of the 6.5CM or 260. So I doubt your impacts were any higher than the 308/154@2800.
It sounds like both of these pills have good proportions and are well balanced. So there’s no comparison like the old 308/137 vs new 308/137 of an unbalanced vs balanced pill.

What’s left in the equation? We’ve had many discussions in the past about the importance of keeping the shank speed up in order to create a better wound channel and bubble. So consider “sectional density,” the relationship of a pill’s diameter to it’s length/weight. The 264/125HHT is 1.430″ long and the 308/154HHT is 1.335″ long. Long and skinny vs short and fat. The 308 diameter pill will displace more animal matter but will also meet more resistance because of its diameter as it transitions into the shank. The lack of sectional density of the 308 could possibly slow the shank compared to the longer skinnier 264 shank that meets less resistance because of its diameter and has more sectional density in its shank to keep the speed up.

In my mind this is the easiest explanation as to why LESS displacement of the 125HHT creates a better bubble in this instance.

Kneedeep
 
Kneedeep,
Your analogy makes sense.
In my jug testing 2 yrs ago, i got better penetration from mid-weight 6.5s than I did from similar weighted 30 cal bullets at similar velocities.The bigger diameter slugs slowed faster. Water is a Very tough test medium and probably not realistic if compared to tissue/bone/organs and hide. But in the same test media, the smaller diameter shank maintained its speed longer. I liked that aspect!
 
gltaylor said:
Kneedeep,
Your analogy makes sense.
In my jug testing 2 yrs ago, i got better penetration from mid-weight 6.5s than I did from similar weighted 30 cal bullets at similar velocities.The bigger diameter slugs slowed faster. Water is a Very tough test medium and probably not realistic if compared to tissue/bone/organs and hide. But in the same test media, the smaller diameter shank maintained its speed longer. I liked that aspect!
Click to expand...
My wife made an instant kill on a buffalo with a 127 LRX from her CM. 42 of H4350. Don't let Butter Bean see this. It could put him in a coma. She took the spine off the base of the skull. That's a lot of animal to drop on the spot. Placement is everything.
 
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