“Hammer Bullets BC Sucks”

OutdoorEdventure

OutdoorEdventure

Moderator
Staff member
It sometimes easier to call someone an “idiot.” But let me step up to my soapbox for a thought out response. Then I’ll call them an idiot.

🧼📦

I’ve had 3 occasions target shooting where I needed to correct the BC.

17 HMR out to 325 yards
223 Rem out to 800 yards
308 out to 900 yards.

The first two times I was shooting in the bullets in the transonic zone (17HMR, 223Rem).

The odd ball was the 168 Berger VLD Bullet at 900 yards that was 240 yards before transonic zone. Several phone calls and email exchanges with Berger swapped up to the 190VLD. Splashing out to 1100 yards, which was max distance at that shooting range.

The velocity of the 168 “should have” carried the bullet out to the 1K range just fine. But I literally could not make contact with the target at 900 yards. According to Phil Hoham, Bergers technical support. “Sometimes a bullet runs out of gas.” Jumping up to a slower but heavier 190 put that bullet in the transonic zone around 1000-1060 yards depending on environmental conditions.

This was fun to learn. But as I stated at the beginning this is target shooting in the transonic zone where BC’s had to be fine tuned.

So when people start commenting on BC the first thing I say is, “you hunt beyond a bullets expansion range?” There response informs me of real world experience versus armchair ballistics.

Let’s model the 6.5 Beanmoor shooting both Hornady 143 ELD-X and Nosler 140 Accubond.

Hornady 143 needs 1650 FPS POI minimal expansion. Boxed ammo 2700 FPS. Gives it about 750Yd max. Roughly 570 Yards before hitting transonic.
IMG_3592.jpeg

140 Accubond has 1800 FPS POI Minimal for proper expansion. Boxed ammo 2650 FPS. Gives it about 550 Yard max. 670 Yards before transonic.
IMG_3593.jpeg

Finally let’s look at the 125 HHT. Need 1700 FPS POI minimal proper expansion. My load has it running 2885 FPS. Roughly about 750 Yards. Roughly 570 yards before transonic.
IMG_3590.jpeg

For giggles I ran the 80gr HHT with my tuned load of 3777. Using the 1700FPS POI minimal. That’s a distance of roughly 725 yards. Again 550 yards before transonic.
IMG_3596.jpeg

For those claiming you need a high BC bullet for hunting, the bullets minimal impact velocity of 1500-1800FPS negates that standard. As far as I can calculate that’s roughly 500+ yards before the transonic zone where things can get sloppy needing to fine tune your B.C.

Even with the weird 169 Berger bullets issue I had. Berger VLD H needs 1800 FPS POI minimal for proper expansion. That’s roughly 550 yards. That’s 400 yards before having my accuracy issues and 670 yards before transonic zone.
IMG_3597.jpeg

Ok… I’ll step off the soap box now.
🧼📦
 
Gday Ed
Hmmm
I think you better send the ballistic armchair warriors this way & advise them to hit the search button as I’m sure the light & fast brigade would love to show actual results

But then again it’s probably not a good idea for them as we have evolved past that & use things like velocity brackets
Transition zones triangle etc

So them poor buggers would get into a transonic zone themselves with that information 😜

A bit like the white noise brigade & peanut gallery on lrh
Maybe you can hook them up 🤔🤣
Cheers
 
Farleg said:
Gday Brad
I think it’s 2714
In that last chart but only briefly taking this in as my mind is ticking on the possible idiots that got ed wound up 🤣🤣

Cheers
Click to expand...
Ok, I think it’s 2720fps. I send 168 VLD-T to 900 better than I do 168 ELDM. MV 2650fps. The 168 VLD-H must have really crapped the bed!
 
OutdoorEdventure said:
It sometimes easier to call someone an “idiot.” But let me step up to my soapbox for a thought out response. Then I’ll call them an idiot.
Ok… I’ll step off the soap box now.
Click to expand...
Well since you stepped off LOL! My turn.

When someone ask about a "hunting bullet" for big game at 1000. It raises so many impolite questions.

Like: Do you own a rangefinder, basic bino's what's the rest of your kit look like...............

Once we have reasonable accuracy and repeatability terminal performance is the only relevant metric. Granted terminal velocity is in there, but some bullets that have been made hunting icons based on BC, as demonstrated don't make the cut

We don't start our shooting life at a 1000, how did so many get to thinking that's a good place to start

A good post Ed
 
HARPERC said:
Well since you stepped off LOL! My turn.

When someone ask about a "hunting bullet" for big game at 1000. It raises so many impolite questions.
Click to expand...
Absolutely and it should because that’s stupid for 95% of the hunters out there.
HARPERC said:
Like: Do you own a rangefinder, basic bino's what's the rest of your kit look like...............

Once we have reasonable accuracy and repeatability terminal performance is the only relevant metric. Granted terminal velocity is in there, but some bullets that have been made hunting icons based on BC, as demonstrated don't make the cut

We don't start our shooting life at a 1000, how did so many get to thinking that's a good place to start
Click to expand...
Smut regurgitation from forums like LRH.
 
HARPERC said:
Well since you stepped off LOL! My turn.

When someone ask about a "hunting bullet" for big game at 1000. It raises so many impolite questions.

Like: Do you own a rangefinder, basic bino's what's the rest of your kit look like...............

Once we have reasonable accuracy and repeatability terminal performance is the only relevant metric. Granted terminal velocity is in there, but some bullets that have been made hunting icons based on BC, as demonstrated don't make the cut

We don't start our shooting life at a 1000, how did so many get to thinking that's a good place to start

A good post Ed
Click to expand...

D'uh, maybe they just have a Creedmoor.
 
Very interesting! I know I like to beat this horse, but nobody seems to want to talk about wind-drift. There is no way to know exactly what is going on between you and the critter when it comes to wind. If we want to get real technical, there is not any way to know what might be happening with thermal effect either. By thermal effect, I mean the up or down effect that might be happening in the air between the gun and the target. I still remember my grandpa mumbling that the didn't take into account the pond he shot the deer across as his shot was low. It was still a DRT, but he wasn't happy. I asked what he meant and he told me he didn't take into account the "down draft" over the water. He was a perfectionist.

One of my last points is who wants to carry all the stuff you need to make an ethical 1,000 yard shot? Not me. It takes a heavy rifle, very expensive scope, spotting scope, expensive rangefinder, tripod, etc., etc. I would also say it takes a lot of practice out in the field to take an ethical 1,000 yard shot at game as well.

It doesn't seem like "time of flight" is often talked about either. At 1,000 yards a lot can happen in the time between when the bullet leaves the rifle, and it arrives at the critter.
 
Last edited:
les said:
Very interesting! I know I like to beat this horse, but nobody seems to want to talk about wind-drift. There is no way to know exactly what is going on between you and the critter when it comes to wind. If we want to get real technical, there is not any way to know what might be happening with thermal effect either. By thermal effect, I mean the up or down effect that might be happening in the air between the gun and the target. I still remember my grandpa mumbling that the didn't take into account the pond he shot the deer across as his shot was low. It was still a DRT, but he wasn't happy. I asked what he meant and he told me he didn't take into account the "down draft" over the water. He was a perfectionist.

One of my last points is who wants to carry all the stuff you need to make an ethical 1,000 yard shot? Not me. It takes a heavy rifle, very expensive scope, spotting scope, expensive rangefinder, tripod, etc., etc. I would also say it takes a lot of practice out in the field to take an ethical 1,000 yard shot at game as well.

It doesn't seem like "time of flight" is often talked about either. At 1,000 yards a lot can happen in the time between when the bullet leaves the rifle, and it arriving at the critter.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more Les. 1000 yard shots in ideal conditions are few and far between. People seem to think wind drift doesn't account for much but at 1K, even with a magnum rifle shooting high BC bullets a 5 mph wind will give you an easy 20" of drift. Sure you can dial for that or hold for it. However 5 mph where your shooting from is no guarantee it's 5 mph where the critter is. I frequently shoot steel to 1000 and occasionally out to a mile. I still however have a max distance for hunting of 750 yards and then only in ideal conditions.

Those steel targets don't care one bit if I hit them in a non vital area. Live critters deserve better.

JM2C
 
les said:
Very interesting! I know I like to beat this horse, but nobody seems to want to talk about wind-drift. There is no way to know exactly what is going on between you and the critter when it comes to wind. If we want to get real technical, there is not any way to know what might be happening with thermal effect either. By thermal effect, I mean the up or down effect that might be happening in the air between the gun and the target. I still remember my grandpa mumbling that the didn't take into account the pond he shot the deer across as his shot was low. It was still a DRT, but he wasn't happy. I asked what he meant and he told me he didn't take into account the "down draft" over the water. He was a perfectionist.

One of my last points is who wants to carry all the stuff you need to make an ethical 1,000 yard shot? Not me. It takes a heavy rifle, very expensive scope, spotting scope, expensive rangefinder, tripod, etc., etc. I would also say it takes a lot of practice out in the field to take an ethical 1,000 yard shot at game as well.

It doesn't seem like "time of flight" is often talked about either. At 1,000 yards a lot can happen in the time between when the bullet leaves the rifle, and it arrives at the critter.
Click to expand...
AMEN
I think I'm all dead eye dick with a piece of caution tape attached the tops of the 1000-1500yd steel plate and time my shots to the angle of the dangle and direction. Don't have that luxury in the field. (On the range, if I don't pay attention to that piece of tape, I will miss. Plain and simple)
 
Mountainman said:
I couldn't agree more Les. 1000 yard shots in ideal conditions are few and far between. People seem to think wind drift doesn't account for much but at 1K, even with a magnum rifle shooting high BC bullets a 5 mph wind will give you an easy 20" of drift. Sure you can dial for that or hold for it. However 5 mph where your shooting from is no guarantee it's 5 mph where the critter is. I frequently shoot steel to 1000 and occasionally out to a mile. I still however have a max distance for hunting of 750 yards and then only in ideal conditions.

Those steel targets don't care one bit if I hit them in a non vital area. Live critters deserve better.

JM2C
Click to expand...
Gday mountainman
I kinda disagree or more just need to fine tune your words as you can’t dial for what you can’t see or input into your calculations for the shot to be taken

I’d like to just fine tune those figures a little more ( but not the actual specifics) & then put into reality of what nearly everyone has a deficiency in

Bring one’s reading ability back to just a 2mph out on one’s wind call & on your figures that’s 8in out
Now put those 8in out on your critters vitals for our individual aim point ( eg are you a on the shoulder or in the crease shooter etc ) add the angles & the ever so important time of flight
& the picture becomes clear on how many people can actually read within 2 mph

I definitely can’t & why today I’m a 500 but most likely 400 & in shooter

I personally got wrapped up in longrange & I call it was for the wank factor that the group I was in as we overall just wanted to get one up on ea other
Way bad but I can’t change it just show so hopefully others reassess the level they can shoot accurately to under various conditions so

For us we did tell the misses to ea other & worse if we hit ( which is extremely hard to tell sometimes also ) we got together & done grids & dogs involved most times but we didn’t find every critter there & then & some did die terrible some lost

my longest 2 shots I’ll refrain from saying how far because it’s not about the number as yep sounds real good & especially when I add both both single shots & in consecutive shots

Now reality
Break that down
Took 3 shots to get wind worked out then hit first critter that took around 30 seconds to tip 2nd was bangflop as cns

First one all good on placement 2 nd a extra 1&1/2inches max ea way & result would have been way different outcome
That whole thing for me was just lucky not skill

Skill today I believe my son has more as he never got wound up in the wank factor I did

Just my 2cents & @les 👍no high horse it’s just showing & repeating to the next generation so they don’t make the mistakes we did 🤞well me


Cheers
 
les said:
One of my last points is who wants to carry all the stuff you need to make an ethical 1,000 yard shot? Not me. It takes a heavy rifle, very expensive scope, spotting scope, expensive rangefinder, tripod, etc., etc. I would also say it takes a lot of practice out in the field to take an ethical 1,000 yard shot at game as well.
Click to expand...
I have the stuff,u use it for target, and my favorite long range activity rock chucks.

Some of our young guys got wound up for the long range big game without checking behind door number 3. While i hate discouraging anyone, I did have a sit down, and shared the list of stuff some of the guys famous for their long range hunting. Lilja had a rangefinder back in the day from a Japanese battleship. Another had a picture of his ATV loaded with all the tools. Reality is often not in the end results, its in the details.
 
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