“More Surface Area = More Tissue Damage”

OutdoorEdventure

OutdoorEdventure

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Scenario discussed on podcast. Statement was something in the lines of 3 different bullets (30cal, 338cal, 35cal) 200gr each, all have the same POI velocity. The bullet with the largest surface area (35cal) will cause more tissue damage.

What say you Hammer Heads?
 
Edd said:
Depending on the energy, the 338 or the 358 could also cause a longer channel.
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Correct me if I’m wrong Ed but the original post states each pill is 200gr and the impact velocity is the same.
KE=0.5×m×v2
Plug the same mass and same velocity for the three different calibers into the KE equation and the energy is the same for the three pills.

I’m an energy guy to a point but not the traditional more energy equals more killing power. I believe it’s how the energy is transferred. So where the original question gets really grey is the form factor of three different pills (different calibers) can not be the same.
Example to the extreme
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Two hammers of the same weight in different calibers. The form factor is completely different. The energy that’s transferred will be completely different in my opinion.

I also think the mass (animal size and resistance) that these pills impact will affect the outcome. As well as the impact velocity to a degree. Shoot a rabbit with these two pills and the 375 will likely cause more tissue damage. Shoot a moose with these two pills and I believe 264 could cause more tissue damage. At some point the 375 “pancakes” on impact with too much resistance, the energy transferred is wide and short. The added resistance of the moose contains this wide short energy whereas the more concentrated, longer narrower energy transfer of the 264 could cause more tissue damage with the added penetration. That doesn’t mean it’s a good moose pill but hopefully explains my thoughts on energy transfer.

Edit to add: the above is the reason we move to heavier weight pills for larger, heavier weight animals.

To add, who’s going to be able to accurately measure tissue damage? I believe it would have to be enough of a difference to visually see the difference. So “no replacement for displacement” to a point in my opinion.

I’m not even going to get into cup and core pills in this discussion as I believe there are many more grey areas concerning makeup and energy transferred.

Just how I see it
Kneedeep
 
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Nice write-up Kneedeep. I believe the original premise is a little too simplistic. One other factor I think is overlooked is the sonic boom or shock wave when the bullet is going faster than the speed of sound through the animal. I was a pistol hunter for about 12 years and the way the critters die at subsonic speeds is way different. I've shot several animals with 45/70s where I'm sure the bullet went subsonic soon after entering the critter and again, they were quick kills, but as Farleg would call it, not that big of a bubble. My last thought for now, is inertia. In the two bullets that Kneedeep used for his example, the 6.5mm is going to carry it's energy better where as the .375 is going to have a tendency to dump it quickly.
 
les said:
Nice write-up Kneedeep. I believe the original premise is a little too simplistic. One other factor I think is overlooked is the sonic boom or shock wave when the bullet is going faster than the speed of sound through the animal. I was a pistol hunter for about 12 years and the way the critters die at subsonic speeds is way different. I've shot several animals with 45/70s where I'm sure the bullet went subsonic soon after entering the critter and again, they were quick kills, but as Farleg would call it, not that big of a bubble. My last thought for now, is inertia. In the two bullets that Kneedeep used for his example, the 6.5mm is going to carry it's energy better where as the .375 is going to have a tendency to dump it quickly.
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Oh great, need more coffee for this one!
Seeing bullets impact gel and rapidly slow within the gel block, I can't imagine any bullet keeping supersonic velocity in a medium like gel or animal tissues. I could be wrong tho. Is there anyway to measure speed inside a medium?
 
Saw many a deer hit with 440gr 12ga slug with huge frontal hit area of the 12ga diameter slug and wondered how they could still be running, but those slugs basically just bored a hole through them without much "bubble". Hit them with 290gr copper Barnes tipped 50 cal muzzleloader with hundreds more FPS and the things DRT. Huge "bubble" with center shoulder shots bubble radiate to the spine for CNS disruption. This killing pattern then starts translating into why I like Hammers performance so much. So, I am all about Speed Kills and the bubble! :cool:
 
Great example BFD. I try to forget about hunting with slugs. When I was a kid in Minnesota, we lived in a "slug only" area. We could get two deer tags, and I always liked hunting up at Grandpa's farm where we could use rifles rather than my friend Jeff's Dad's farm with slugs. I'm with you! Speed Kills!
 
BFD said:
Oh great, need more coffee for this one!
Seeing bullets impact gel and rapidly slow within the gel block, I can't imagine any bullet keeping supersonic velocity in a medium like gel or animal tissues. I could be wrong tho. Is there anyway to measure speed inside a medium?
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I believe the folks with extremely high frame rate cameras (and appropriate software) could measure the speed of expanding gel. They can measure the speed of a pill and fragments exiting gel or off of a steel plate.

These folks could also calculate the amount of energy expended in shedding the nose/petals of a particular design hammer.
 
Another visual you can looking at when discussing energy transfer is high speed footage of body armor and bullet proof glass tests. What makes these lighter weight materials successful is their ability to transfer a bullets energy outward and absorb energy through vibration. An extreme example of a pill “pancaking”.
 
gltaylor said:
OK ..... now I'm lost in rocket science space😝. However....I can "see" tissue/organ damage when I'm "playing patticakes in guts"(BFD).
My premise is still "Speed Kills"!
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Yes but you are limited by the speed being the same across calibers. And the speed is limited by the larger calibers. So in this discussion the speed is the same and this limits impact speeds to more moderate levels unlike your mid to high 3000 impacts.

You don’t get to change the parameters to win the game George!

Shoot a 375 at mid to high 3000 impacts and compare to your 264 of same weight. Hmmm seems like someone has already done that. Maybe a crazy Tassie if I remember correctly. But your 264 is still on the light side compared to his 375.

There are diminishing returns at some point, no matter which way I look at it.
 
A real world example of like weight pills of different caliber would be the 264/125hht vs the 308/124hh. @Farleg has shot both of these pills into his buffalo. I don’t remember the impact velocities but which one performed better Farleg?
 
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