Cartridge Efficiency?

Muddyboots said:
And now we are off and running!

hammerbullets.com

.277 Cal-151gr Hammer HHT™ - Hammer Bullets

This will be a great mid weight option for the 27 cal fast twist rifles. Designed for a 1-8.5" twist or faster barrel, this pure copper Hammer HHT™ will be a great performer on any big game animals from up close and personal to long range.
hammerbullets.com hammerbullets.com
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Gday muddy so where are the results 🤣🤣
All cool I can wait 🤔

Once this is refined we have got the next stage to work on 😱

Yes muddy & I had a great chat this morning ( my time muddys supper time lol ) & we are working on the next thing that comes up in our out there conversations
Yes we are still looking @ refining things further for a better killing system

Cheers
 
Bunch of interesting stuff here. Boat tail vs flat base for penetration. I am not sure there is a rule here. I think in many cases the boat tail will straight line penetrate farther than the flat base because there is less weight at the base that is trying to pass the front. Length of retained shank and amount of stability left after deformation is key here. 100% weight retention solids struggle with straight line penetration because they are too long. Our guys in Africa get deeper penetration with the 300gr .416 than they do with the heavier ones on elephant. The only explanation for this is higher stability on the shorter lighter retained shank. All conventional wisdom says this is not possible.

Bullets tailored to cartridge is interesting discussion. I think with all the different powders available this more easily done with load development. With that said we are able to get the same vel out of the 199gr HH as the 181gr HH in the 300 rum. N570 I think is the culprit here. In the rum case and the 199gr HH n570 simply shines. Cases that are supposedly designed for heavy bullets and efficiency have proven to do extremely well with light pills. Take the Creed with the 80gr HHT. 3600 fps is easy and shoots great. I think the 06 based cases are so inefficient that they work great with everything! :ROFLMAO:

Whenever possible we try to place the boat tail junction even with the case neck junction to keep plenty of bullet in the case neck and maximize case capacity. As an old timer once told me...Seating the bullets out to increase case capacity only makes it take more powder to get to the same pressure. Lol! He is right, but depending on the burn characteristic of the powder and the length of the barrel, maximizing case space can result in higher overall vel with the same pressure. Diff powders. Same powder, the pressure would have to be higher to get more vel.

We have been able to make lots of great loads with bullets seated very deep because of throat restrictions. The whole donut thing I am not too sure I fully understand what causes it. Seems like throat dimension would play into this?
 
Steve,
Donuts are caused most often from 2 things:

Sizing brass down to smaller caliber - like from 30/06 to 6.5-06. The excess neck brass is forced to the neck/shoulder junction, and,

Neck turning brass where the individual doesn't turn down to actually "kiss" the shoulder/neck junction during the neck turning process.

Other things can cause donuts, but they are in the minority.

Jm2cw
 
Steve Davis said:
Bunch of interesting stuff here. Boat tail vs flat base for penetration. I am not sure there is a rule here. I think in many cases the boat tail will straight line penetrate farther than the flat base because there is less weight at the base that is trying to pass the front. Length of retained shank and amount of stability left after deformation is key here. 100% weight retention solids struggle with straight line penetration because they are too long. Our guys in Africa get deeper penetration with the 300gr .416 than they do with the heavier ones on elephant. The only explanation for this is higher stability on the shorter lighter retained shank. All conventional wisdom says this is not possible.
I think the 06 based cases are so inefficient that they work great with everything! :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
The -06 due to military origins had to work in a multitude of firearms, as well as many actions. Still does well when modern components, and manufacture individualize it.:ninja:;)

@Farleg and I had opinions on which .375 would penetrate best, and found there is a spot where "balance" becomes an issue.
 
gltaylor said:
Steve,
Donuts are caused most often from 2 things:

Sizing brass down to smaller caliber - like from 30/06 to 6.5-06. The excess neck brass is forced to the neck/shoulder junction, and,

Neck turning brass where the individual doesn't turn down to actually "kiss" the shoulder/neck junction during the neck turning process.

Other things can cause donuts, but they are in the minority.

Jm2cw
Click to expand...
I thought I read near the beginning of the thread that someone posted that deeply seated bullets could be responsible for donuts in the brass.
 
HARPERC said:
@Farleg and I had opinions on which .375 would penetrate best, and found there is a spot where "balance" becomes an issue.
Click to expand...

Gday Carl
This will probably be my last post on this subject for a while as got a lot to do with the 3stooges & limited time so I’ll bow out of a participating in threads like I normally would ( not my wishes but I need to balance things 😜🤣 pun intended 😇)

Those opinions were extremely welcomed from this side of the ditch , believe me I’ve not had any discussions that are as open minded as here & you sir are a gem along with other members I can’t emphasise how lucky we are to rub shoulders & bounce ideas off ea other & one that is a challenge in my mind to work out & only factual evidence/information will prove it one way or the other as it did on our discussions in those days gone by ( years now lol but seems like yesterday 😇 )

Balance is a word we bring up a lot now & it can mean a wide variety of things like length to caliber
Shank to caliber
Hp depth
Hp width
Twist
Velocity window
Power burn rates
Powder burn efficiency
Penertration capability
Accuracy
Bubble
The list goes on & on

But fundamentally to me all of the above can be broken down to a couple of things & the triangle gives us that

I don’t except a dead critter is ok I look @ ea & ever wound /kill as what didn’t it do not what it did as if that is looked @ that way in my mind you will never see the wood in the trees yep I have a knack of finding it’s weakness so we can hopefully stop it occurring or what reality is of occurring on a lower % base
I guess it’s adding bandaids/ insurance in one’s pill choices that I air on the side of caution as yes a lightweight will kill extremely well until it doesn’t or a heavy will kill extremely well until it dosent & as my old mentor kept preaching to me “keep shooting Fordy you will see it “ yep it doesn’t Matter what pill what brand we shoot those words are so true , totally get a frangible will kill extremely well a bonded will kill extremely well a mushroom mono will kill extremely well

UNTIL IT DOESENT !!!!!!!

This is where a shedding mono has shown to be the most effective/efficient killing pill I’ve seen
BUT they are also some of the worst & this is what muddy & I had great in-depth conversations on research/analysis/theories & hence this thread came around

So I’ll ask everyone to clear their heads for a bit go back read this thread multiple times & then put in their own situation ask themselves what they actually need a pill to do & here’s where I’d start
Reach the target accurately
Give us adequate penertration
Give us a good wound channel
Get to one’s range with insurance built in
On velocity impacts personally & once again REGARDLESS of brand for me personally I don’t like sub 2000 impacts (2100 is better ) as your runs are longer & the % of lost critters is way higher & that is from well into 6 figures of big critters so I choose to stay above there & today I’m struggling to get below 2400 & that includes my 500 Jeffery as the impact to tip is vastly better & it can only occur once we have balanced pill & that is ultimately upto the company if they choose to listen or can even see it ( yes some just 6BF9C1DA-66DD-4D9D-90E4-7F6604EC6778.jpeg )

So we are lucky to have the hammerboys but rest assured while I can I’m not going to ease up on showing the weaknesses when I find them as to me we ea deserve to give the critter the most respect we can as they are gods gift to us so let’s give them the best respect we can & keep pushing for even better pills tomorrow

Yes Steve don’t rest on your laurels we are coming 🤣you only have to make all the pills like the 375 277/8 hht easy right you have the formula 🤪🤪 ( people there is no formula that’s become a private joke between Steve & i or should say haven’t found a formula yet 🤷‍♂️ ) then as you know I’ll shut up lol

A balanced efficient pill is the best place to start & weight of the pill will not be the same for everyone it’s matching it to one’s needs but I will state I’ve not seen a true lightweight or true heavyweight achieve a balanced position above any midweight

Just how I see things & aiming for

Catch you guys on the flip side I’ve got some things to organise for joe so stay tuned for that it’s going to be priceless imo

No proof read & rant over well for now 🤣😜
Cheers
 
Mr Coight, make sure you take a group photo of all you ruffian rabble rousers when they all get there so we know what you all look like in case someone has to file a police report! 🤔😳😳😳😳😉😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺 if you all were in Mother Russia, you could be labeled as “ hooligans “ ( mother Russia is different than mothers milk, Russell! ) 😉😂😂😂😂
 
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