Light Fast and Heavy Fast
- Thread starter Muddyboots
- Start date
Koda
Hammer Time Executive member
Im still fairly new to reloading, got into it on my own about 2 years ago and right outta the gate ran into learning curve problems along the way as if Murphy was personally following me. I have no mentor....
I cant begin to tell you how many times Ive heard from very experienced reloaders what I "dont need".
Monolithic hunting bullets...
additional velocity
sub MOA groups for hunting
Lighter bullet weights (and FWIW im crazy for hunting elk with my 25-06 but thats another subject)
And if I listened to them Id still be shooting cup and core factory ammo in the heaviest weight I could find with 2+in groups all under 200yds. Because "I dont need".....
What Ive learned is experienced people who tell me what "I dont need" usually are not experienced enough to tell me why. My very first clue was questioning why any reloader would ignore additional velocity, heavy or light.
Just my thoughts on this subject regardless of bullet weight. FWIW Im getting my 25 rebarelled and throated to shoot the heavy hammers.
Perfect example is my .270 Win 27" 1:8tw 0.290 freebore, 700 LA that shoots the 156HH at crazy velocity. This rifle was built to shoot the 156 and delivers. If you had 7RM shooting 160 at 3200 would you be happy? My .270 shoots 156 at 3200 (topped out 3284) so I am very happy!!! There is another aspect to Hammers that has been overlooked and its stunning what you can do with heavies.
I like this whole conversation and agree with everything, I think you all agree as well for the most part! I would love to hear you all expand a little on the idea of optimization of short action normal capacity cartridges such as .308 .358 win and such like.
I think we all realize that these will never be long range guns but some of these will struggle to get to the edge of normal hunting distance say 300 - 350 yards. Light bullets loose their speed fast, heavie don’t have as much to begin with, is there a happy middle ground for these velocity challenged numbers? I suspect there is but let’s hear it folks.
I think we all realize that these will never be long range guns but some of these will struggle to get to the edge of normal hunting distance say 300 - 350 yards. Light bullets loose their speed fast, heavie don’t have as much to begin with, is there a happy middle ground for these velocity challenged numbers? I suspect there is but let’s hear it folks.
kneedeep
Hammer Time Executive member
Muddy
I don’t know that it’s been overlooked as much as it’s been overshadowed by the light and fast crowd. I like both depending on one’s needs (light/fast vs max range above 1800fps). You’ve picked a great time to open this discussion as I believe the band aides are going to get ripped off with the new prototype.
Light and fast hammers certainly shine at the most common hunting distances.
In conversations with Farleg, regarding optimally balancing a pill, I repeated brought up pills like the 260hh/.338 that didn’t fit the light and fast mold but had a reputation of excellent terminal performance. This pill also was an outlier in terms of stability factor. I am certainly excited to see the near future of hammers in general. I believe they are all headed in the right direction.
100% agree. The numbers don’t lie. Some of these cartridges seem to produce higher velocities across many bullet weights while other cartridges might produce higher velocities only at the upper or lower end of bullet weights.
Great discussion
Kneedeep
1) If I was a youngster starting out looking for a one rifle North America this would be my choice.
2) Keep in mind I'm the guy built a rifle around a 160 grain plus 6.5.
3) I'm a big .375 fan. I've used a .358 AI successfully, I love a good .338 RUM
4) I swore off .308 bullets of less than 200 grains decades ago.
5) Philosophically more in tune with Elmer Keith than Jack O'Connor, or Roy Weatherby.
Reality check: Neither those facts integrate well with my present personal reality.
@Steve Davis and I have a bit of conversation on a .300 RUM load for my son in laws rifle going, and its tough to find fault in his thinking.
Me plugging in personal preference, and parameters the 160 class has more appeal. We do have ample twist to run the heavies, and may at some point decide that's the way to go based on ever changing parameters.
I never was a hyper velocity fan until we had bullets to support it.
This type of discussion has its roots in Sir Samual Baker's 2 bore "Baby" and has rightly changed with bullet technology. The recent posting of neophytes shooting a .700 highlight the price upper limits come with.
Which brings us back to honestly answering the question what boxes are we trying to check in the present? The question would I be better off going bigger is legit. The same could be said of of the .300 RUM 1999 HH could an even bigger choice be better? Again plug in personal parameters.
LightTheTower
Hammer Time Executive member
Absolutely agree! I started reloading less than a year ago, and luckily discovered Hammers very quickly. One of my best friends has been reloading for many years. He is the best shot I know… saw him call his shot on a doe’s eye and make it at 450+ yards!Im still fairly new to reloading, got into it on my own about 2 years ago and right outta the gate ran into learning curve problems along the way as if Murphy was personally following me. I have no mentor....
I cant begin to tell you how many times Ive heard from very experienced reloaders what I "dont need".
Monolithic hunting bullets...
additional velocity
sub MOA groups for hunting
Lighter bullet weights (and FWIW im crazy for hunting elk with my 25-06 but thats another subject)
And if I listened to them Id still be shooting cup and core factory ammo in the heaviest weight I could find with 2+in groups all under 200yds. Because "I dont need".....
What Ive learned is experienced people who tell me what "I dont need" usually are not experienced enough to tell me why. My very first clue was questioning why any reloader would ignore additional velocity, heavy or light.
Just my thoughts on this subject regardless of bullet weight. FWIW Im getting my 25 rebarelled and throated to shoot the heavy hammers.
He shoots a Berger 168VLD out of a 7 STW at 2680 fps! It’s an accurate load for his rifle, but that number astounded me!
I'm old enough to remember the JFK quote "A rising tide lifts all boats" look forward to this in large capacity cases.Can't speak to details yet cause they're not in yet. Let me just say that mid-sized cartridge shooters (308-30/06) are about to get very happy!
Come on Farleg....get on with the data
DiscoSteve
Hammer Time Executive member
I don't shoot any magnum calibers (just the plain ol' 308 and 30-06 in 30 cal for me). But I'm VERY interested in any bullet developments/improvements for us short action shooters! Just my 2 cents but the heavies don't shine in the short action calibers, which I seem to own several of (7-08, 6.5 CM, 308) and standard long action calibers (240 wby mag, 280 AI, 30-06). I have a 6.5 PRC on order that I should get this summer, which will be my first magnum chambering. I did hit 4000+ with the 69 AH out of the 240 wby mag, but that's the fastest I've pushed them.Can't speak to details yet cause they're not in yet. Let me just say that mid-sized cartridge shooters (308-30/06) are about to get very happy!
Come on Farleg....get on with the data
I've been very impressed with the terminal performance of the game I've harvested with hammer bullets, and I'm sure heavy bullets pushed faster would be even more devastating. Just at the expense of more recoil.
And @Steve Davis, I think a 30 cal 199 gr hammer going 3400 fps is going to be tough to be beat by anything!
Good greif, all this hinting and here I am intentionally NOT finish up my new 300 SAUM so I can jump on the new bullet line when they come out...Can't speak to details yet cause they're not in yet. Let me just say that mid-sized cartridge shooters (308-30/06) are about to get very happy!
Come on Farleg....get on with the data
But I'll keep waiting (im)patiently
If you want to get SA style cartridges to take step up with heavies, they need to be in at least mid size action like Tikka. Just can't get away from needing magazine COAL to set the heavies out far enough to keep case capacity. Because of the limitation, I run the SA's laser fast with the lighter bullets. So I am equal opportunity Hammer thrower!
I'm a HUGE heavy for cal guy, one of my favorite bullets I'm my 308 is a 215 Berger but everything I shoot will be shot at an elk and at distance. Identify your real needs for the rifle and find a balanced bullet, if your shooting whitetails inside 300 yards grab a fast, flat low recoil bullet and start stacking them.
There is also no reason not to shoot multiple bullets, have an ultra flat shooting bullet for general hunting then one that maximizes your range and animal size.
With modern ballistic tools zero for your walk around bullet then use the long range one when your dialing, the ballistics app doesn't care where you zero, it'll take you to the correction from where ever!
We really don't have to compromise with all the tools we have!!
There is also no reason not to shoot multiple bullets, have an ultra flat shooting bullet for general hunting then one that maximizes your range and animal size.
With modern ballistic tools zero for your walk around bullet then use the long range one when your dialing, the ballistics app doesn't care where you zero, it'll take you to the correction from where ever!
We really don't have to compromise with all the tools we have!!
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For a lot of years I used a 200 grain bonded bullet in my RUM with fantastic results. The idea of using the same weight Hammer and picking up speed over the bonded bullet is too good to ignore. And I agree. Not much will be able to touch it. mtmuley
Dang it! Do I HAVE to go RUM shopping? And no not the liquid version! I thought my 300WM with 196HH at 3150 was special but now I see its starting load for RUM!
Real question is can my trashed right shoulder take it?
Real question is can my trashed right shoulder take it?
les
Hammer Time Executive member
I used similar bullets. I've got some of those 199's on the way. So what twist is your RUM mtmuley? I see Steve has "Check your Twist" plastered all over the 30 cal selections. In my sample packs just ordered I included the 174 grain HH. It looks like an interesting bullet. When those pedals shed, I want that shank to keep going straight! Oh, I do really like shooting and hunting with my 308 Winchester as well as my AI 06. That said this is a discussion about the bigger boys. The truth in drag racing (part of my past) is the same as here, "There is no replacement for displacement." I love my RUM! I really enjoy this place!
ButterBean
Hammer Time Executive member
Put a Dead Mule in the stock and it will feel like a 30-06
les
Hammer Time Executive member
I was going to make a snide remark. The 300WM is an awesome cartridge. I do like my RUM. If you are going all the way and you are right handed, just go all the way and get a Weatherby 30-378. (Just kidding.) What bugs me are all of the new cartridges that if you look at them on paper, they are not really much more than a 300WM repackaged. If you get a RUM you will want a brake or run a suppressor, trashed or not trashed shoulder.