No blood trail?

HARPERC

HARPERC

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I've been seeing a few posts indicating minimal to no blood trail with Hammer's.

In my "thinking" with Hammer, or other projectile, this can be more of an anatomy physiology, shot placement issue than bullet choice.

To get a good blood trail one has to hit something with good blood pressure, and good blood supply. Absent pressure we need gravity. If the body cavity is sloshing, full of blood it needs a path to the ground, but I can't see this as a bullet issue. Absent physical exertion (not going far or fast) will minimize exterior blood.

Commotio Cordis, is heart stoppage from chest trauma where heart is not damaged. Generally in medical field associated with sports injuries baseball to chest etc. Are we seeing heart stoppage without heart damage? R on T in the electrical cycle causing the heart to fibrillate?

A common theme in these reports seems to be hits a bit back, and high in the lung. Which may, or may not have a lot of blood present or much flow, and what there is gravity may drain to bottom, and like any container no leaking until it reaches the level of the holes.

Just a mental exercise, as cold snap has arthritis in high gear looking for distractions.

Other thoughts very welcome.
 
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Was my first and only gripe with the hunters… lack of blood trail.
I’ve also never needed one to find an animal hit with a hammer. They’re generally pretty close to where they were hit.

Talking shoulder lung liver heart hits here…
They don’t go into a full blow death run either. They either stagger or scamper off a short ways and lose their feet after a few seconds. Exception was my sons high lung hit buck this season. It also didn’t go far but didn’t die quickly either. Took what seemed like 5min at the time (but you know how time can get distorted in the heat of a kill). I think he had to fill up with blood before aspirating and dying.

All in all my thought is shot placement has the most effect on this. Then impact velocity and how violent the “nose blow” is. (I.e. 137g new vs old).

But I’m no expert.
 
HARPERC said:
Other thoughts very welcome.
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A hunting friend once told me that bullets do weird things sometimes and can be unpredictable. So many variables. Ive also noticed the current trend in forums suggesting Hammers dont leave blood trails. Ive also noticed these are based on subjective circumsances and lets not forget the many many other Hammer sucess posts with great results. I think its just random, and can and does happen with any bullet.
Last elk i killed was with a Hornady Interlock. 100yd perfect double lung shot. I expected it to run, it did... about 50yds. It did not however leave any blood trail and took me a few minutes to find it piled up. The bullet split in two, the front half left an exit hole. Lungs destroyed.
Again, no blood trail. It can happen with any bullet.
 
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The few deer/hogs I/we have shot with hammers, (124HH and 151 AH out of rums) have been bang flops or 20 yards death dash’s with plenty of blood. There were 2 exceptions. My 12 yr old at the time son center punched a buck right through the guts with the 151 AH at 3850fps. No blood. Which is expected. Ran 100 yards before expiring. The other was a hog, don’t know or care where the 4200 fps 124 HH entered. The hog was the last in a line of 3. The first one fell, The 2nd ran 20, the 3rd ran a couple hundred yards. Watched it fall, didn’t go inspect it. I’m sure it was a very low velocity round by the time it exited the 2nd swine.
 
This year we tried the .277 110g hh and saw our first good blood trail.
The 110hh at 515yds 2200fps-ish impact velocity left a really good blood trail and lung matter with an above center line double lunger. This deer did run uphill (what I estimated to be 60-70yds but my buddy estimated closer to 30yds I think the discrepancy is actual distance vs as a crow flies) and likely was pumping it out because of that extra exertion. Trail started immediately. Picked up a bit in intensity towards the end of the trail. Off side blood exit only. Exit hole not very large, dime sized or so.

Side note: These bullets are shedding 50% of their weight. Based on caught shanks from my backstop.
 
MeatBuck said:
All in all my thought is shot placement has the most effect on this. Then impact velocity and how violent the “nose blow” is. (I.e. 137g new vs old).

But I’m no expert.
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No expert either, posting to hear others thoughts.

The hits I seem to be hearing about (generally) fit what you're saying. The slower impacts seem to pop up a bit more often.
 
JesseJ said:
The few deer/hogs I/we have shot with hammers, (124HH and 151 AH out of rums) have been bang flops or 20 yards death dash’s with plenty of blood. There were 2 exceptions. My 12 yr old at the time son center punched a buck right through the guts with the 151 AH at 3850fps. No blood. Which is expected. Ran 100 yards before expiring. The other was a hog, don’t know or care where the 4200 fps 124 HH entered. The hog was the last in a line of 3. The first one fell, The 2nd ran 20, the 3rd ran a couple hundred yards. Watched it fall, didn’t go inspect it. I’m sure it was a very low velocity round by the time it exited the 2nd swine.
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Some have asked whether there is a difference in the SH, HH, and AH lines regarding terminal performance, are you seeing anything along those lines?
 
Sorry to say, I didn’t shoot the 151s long enough to do much testing. BUTTERBEAN turned me on to the 124 HH and I haven’t looked back. I have a plethora of hammers to do some testing. But currently building a house. So very very little play time available.
 
I think for the most part...you are spot on. I would argue, the HH by design is not gonna leave a very large exit wound. The shank, even if it doubled in size just doesn't leave a big exit wound. These wounds can and often are plugged by fat, muscle and other tissues that stop bleeding. This is especially true in bears that have lots of fat and lots of hair to soak up any blood that does get out of the hole.

I think this is why the HHT line has produced such large blood trails....it leaves much larger entry wounds and thus providing wounds that are not getting plugged with tissue. I will continue to test this theory in the coming years and report back. It is my theory that the HHT opens much faster and causes a larger bubble effect causing massive bleeding to exit the entry wound. The exit wounds are again....approximately 2 times the diameter of the shank.

Your standard cup and core bullets, by design, have larger exit wounds. This is what folks have been shooting for the last hundred (or more) years....and blood trails are very common.

Any lung, heart or liver shot....should produce a blood trail. If the shot is higher in the chest cavity, it may take 10-20 yards for the blood trail to become easily visible as the blood needs to fill the chest cavity and or be coughed up through the deer's noise and mouth. I have also archery hunted since I was 8 years old and broadheads quite often, offer great blood trails. They bore 1 1/4" to 2" holes through the animal that like to pour blood on the ground. Point being....if you don't have a big entry and / or exit wound, blood will just pool in the cavities of the deer.
 
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Great discussion. I admit I am one who prefers a good blood trail.
My limited experience agrees with most of what has been said above.
Only one of three (or four…memory is escaping me) HHT kills have had good blood trail thus far. All the positive HHT reviews have me thinking shot placement was suboptimal.
Looking forward to trying the lighter .308 and .284 options…if I don’t stick to the SH line.

Edit to add, I am also looking to up the velocity next year, which will certainly change the calculus.
 
Agreed with all the above 👆. Will add from experience with archery, a shot to the vital V for example there’s a lot of layers of very flexible muscles that can soak up a lot of blood between them, also as the animal runs off the holes through those layers no longer line up as well further restricting the amount of blood flow. Happens with broadheads Hornady or Hammers, unless you get a pop can size hole through the V then you’ll have blood. Similar things can happen from other shot angles as well.
 
There has to be a large difference in caliber diameter as far as bleeding and shock transfer, say with a 6.5 118hht, 30 cal 138 HHT, and a 338 cal 175 HH. not only hole size but frontal Bullet mass making the bubble. The 338 cal has to be higher percent of both, bleeding and shock transfer, especially when compared to a 6.5 cal. Maybe thats why Farleg Dundee gets impressive kills for bullet weight with the 30 cal 137 HH and 154hht.
 
I’ve killed or watched killed maybe 7 or 8 elk, 1 moose, and a few deer with 143 and 131 hunters out of 7 rem mag and 7mm-08.

I’d agree, blood trail isn’t a strong point of the bullet. Short of blowing bone chunks out, entry and exit wounds have been caliber size.

I have adjusted my aim points to better destroy bone if I need to anchor a critter, otherwise double lung hit and they haven’t gone far.
 
My son and I have killed 7 deer in last couple years with 30-06 and my "Skinny Ugly" (@joe16) fast twist .270 Win. All one shot kills with really good blood trails. Interesting thought is the 06 is with 180HH and the .270Win with 156HH. All shots less than 300 yds. Some 50-75. The 06 MV with 180HH is 2875 (load listed) and the .270Win is 3205 with the 156HH. So generally heavier bullets at pretty good impact velocity. Heavy "slosh" factor. At least one buck had heart detached laying in chest cavity.

This discussion is interesting. IMG_5879.jpeg
 
My experience has been the opposite with Hammers so far. Blood trails have been significant.


First pic (snow) is a blood trail from a Pronghorn shot at 309 yards with a 155 HH starting at 3000fps in my 308 win. He went about 50 yards.

The second pic is a blood trail from a Texas whitetail shot at 85 yards with a 145 HHT at 3250fps from a 280 AI. He dropped within 25 yards.

In both cases the entry hole was of caliber diameter and the exit holes were numerous elongated holes around an expanded central exit hole over an inch.

Both shots were right behind the front shoulder; one angling forward, one angling slightly back. For me, with the hammers, I try to avoid shoulder shots in order to let the pedals do their thing in softer tissue.
 

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OK, a stroll out into left field.

CNC's have switched to synthetics, water based quite some time ago from my experience in manufacturing before I retired years ago. Lots of reasons for better coolant management. Parts then typically go through a washer cycle and dry cycle. So what's left in the hollow point? Maybe some water based synthetic coolant? Some type of washer surfactant? Deionized Water?🤷🏻‍♂️

Now the stroll into the space vortex. The one aspect of shooting Hammers is the need for faster twists plus increased velocity even with standard twists. Which results in higher RPM of bullet.

Sooooo, is the higher RPM centrifugal forces causing the contents of the hollow point to "escape" and vaporizing during flight? Orrrrr is the higher RPM's of the bullet creating visible vortexes during flight depending on environmental conditions?

Ok, my head hurts and getting another coffee.
 
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