Straighwall Cartridges for Muzzleloader Season - What are your thoughts.

I guess I don't understand why not just hunt during rifle season if you want to run a rifle. ML season for those.
The same can be said for allowing handgun hunting during archery.
Maybe do away with archery and ML and combine the seasons then call them short range. Allow any archery gear, any ML set up, shot/slug guns, handguns and might as well include the straight walls also.

Kris
 
I personally think the rationale offered by Fred Bear should be followed. Primitive weapons (long bows, recurves, traditional muzzleloaders) were at a distinct disadvantage and therefore warranted a special season. Think those days are long gone as far as weapons being traditional or are at a disadvantage. Many of the weapons that are currently in use during those seasons are far from primitive.

I understand that a certain number of animals need to be taken to allow for sustainable healthy herds. That being the case ...... maybe a longer season, choose your weapon. Curious if there will be a decrease in "primative weapons" if that takes place.
Muddyboots said:
NO!
Michigan is doing this for last couple years and really screwed up the total experience of hunting with a muzzleloader. If an agency needs more deer killed, increase tags in standard firearm season, heck reduce tag costs. increase season lengths. How about allowing full firearm use in archery? 🤮

As a geezer, I understand us older hunters may need optical assist in order to shoot a muzzleloader but even this has me questioning why there needs to be a muzzleloader that shoots 500yds with optics, custom bullets and now even with smokeless powder. There are other options with sights such as fiber optics that will help those with vision. Reduction in ability to shoot distances is part of being in primitive season. Accept this very basic concept that was the sole purpose of this season.

I hunted last year with my first muzzleloader, 54 Hawkens with 425gr Hornady Great Plains conical, 3F Pyrodex and #11 caps. Have rear Williams peep with front globe. As I sat there holding it, I realized how much I missed hunting with it and will be pulling it out more often for sure. I stumbled into a 250 tin of RWS 11 caps at a LGS about month ago and grabbed them! Harder to find than RL26!!!

I truly have mixed emotions on whether this season needs to revert back to more primitive requirements when hunter sustainability is going down.

Part of the discussion was not everyone has a muzzleloader. Really? Another everybody gets a trophy mentality?

This is no different than xbow in archery. Is archery just recurve or longbow? No mechanical assist? 85% let off compounds? Range finders?

Me? Keep seasons separated by defined weapon. Manage deer herd through kill management within each season. Even add earn an additional buck tag through doe kills.

Seriously, what the heck has happened to our wildlife agencies? IMO, Michigan is completely out of control in this regard. Wildlife management is a another discussion within itself.
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Re: Michigan
Most of it fueled by low hunter numbers and the resulting loss of revenue. from license sales, State and Federal funding. Recruitment, Retention and Reactivation (3Rs) became the mantra. The best recruiters have always been family members and friends that took kids out hunting and fishing. The younger generation was more interested in tech than the outdoors.

My personal opinion is that complicated fish and game laws keep many away for fear of running afoul of the regulations.

The 3 Rs are a big part of the outdoor gear industry's business marketing plan.

My opinion FWIW
 
It's always been my opinion that most states muzzleloader seasons have been ruined anyway. Modern inline rifles with modern bullets, modern optics and even smokeless powder that shoot accurately to 500 yards..........might as well be just limited to any single shot rifle period.

Real muzzleloader hunters use sidelocks, black powder, patched round ball and sights that are adjusted with a file and a hammer. It is (was) meant to be a challenge. There are a few places that have a "primitive" season, some that actually require flintlocks and I applaud them.

JM2C
 
Mountainman said:
Real muzzleloader hunters use sidelocks, black powder, patched round ball and sights that are adjusted with a file and a hammer. It is (was) meant to be a challenge. There are a few places that have a "primitive" season, some that actually require flintlocks and I applaud them.
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Before @joe16 can chime in, yes, I still have mine that I bought new when it was built in 1700's.
 
I have been reading this thread and have had some "knee jerk" reactions to somethings that have been stated. I hope this comes out as reasonable as it sounds in my head.

I am an archery guy at heart. I shoot a 60lb compound with a fixed pin site, a drop away rest and 70% let off. I have carbon arrows with plastic fletching and modern fancy steel broadleads. In some peoples estimation I have an unfair advantage over a "Trad". I don't see it that way. I am not filling tags every year even with my non archery, archery setup

I dont hunt in stands as I can't handle the boredom and cooped up feeling. I like the sit and call or spot and stalk style of hunting. When I get either of these methods to work I am usually under 30m from my quarry. All of my bowkills have actually been inside 20m.

I have shot 3d foam targets at ridiculously long ranges and it has taught me that without a lot more practice 40m is my longest shot in really optimal conditions.

I also have a TC inline front stuffer. It wears a scope. It has two kills. If you add up the distance of those two kills it might get to 125m total. How is that and advantage over a guy with a flintlock.

This is getting long and rambling. I guess I just hate being judged as cheating when I am trying to do my best.
 
Trubkir17 said:
I also have a TC inline front stuffer. It wears a scope. It has two kills. If you add up the distance of those two kills it might get to 125m total. How is that and advantage over a guy with a flintlock.
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No issue here. It's the protection of this season from more "modern" centerfire cartridge rifles which don't belong in even a "modified" primitive season. IMO. I do have issue with smokeless powder versions though that increase lethality way out there . That and $5 will get you cup a coffee. Inflation.
 
I had an idea that makes me want to use my muzzleloader on at least one more deer. The 44 cal 205 gr Jack Hammer in a 44 cal Harvester Crush Rib sabot over a near max load of Blackhorn 209, or IMR4198! Seems like that combo would crush about anything.
 
Trubkir17 said:
I have been reading this thread and have had some "knee jerk" reactions to somethings that have been stated. I hope this comes out as reasonable as it sounds in my head.

I am an archery guy at heart. I shoot a 60lb compound with a fixed pin site, a drop away rest and 70% let off. I have carbon arrows with plastic fletching and modern fancy steel broadleads. In some peoples estimation I have an unfair advantage over a "Trad". I don't see it that way. I am not filling tags every year even with my non archery, archery setup

I dont hunt in stands as I can't handle the boredom and cooped up feeling. I like the sit and call or spot and stalk style of hunting. When I get either of these methods to work I am usually under 30m from my quarry. All of my bowkills have actually been inside 20m.

I have shot 3d foam targets at ridiculously long ranges and it has taught me that without a lot more practice 40m is my longest shot in really optimal conditions.

I also have a TC inline front stuffer. It wears a scope. It has two kills. If you add up the distance of those two kills it might get to 125m total. How is that and advantage over a guy with a flintlock.

This is getting long and rambling. I guess I just hate being judged as cheating when I am trying to do my best.
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I’ve used a crossbow in archery season.
I’ve used a scoped inline muzzleloader.
I own a beautiful handmade long bow, but I don’t practice enough to hunt with it.
Someday I hope to build a beautiful flintlock rifle.
I think many of the rules/restrictions that various states put on hunting are silly or misguided, but I will NOT judge anyone who is hunting ethically!🤘
 
If I recall the expression a camel is a horse designed by a committee. Such are most regulations.

I find it ironic that modern muzzleloading started as folks wanting more of a challenge. It then morphed into special seasons, more antler less permits, and winter range type hunting to make it easier. Then it got out of hand, as one more demographic dividing the hunting community as a whole. Ushering in pick your weapon regulations, cutting everyones time in the field.

How bad should an old guys eyes have to be to qualify for optical assistance?
 
Muddyboots said:
So why not add another week to firearm and just move the ML season back and why not into January?
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Some states are pretty specific in what can be (or not be ) used in their ML seasons, coming right down to what type of optics can be used.
 
Keep in mind the reason for restriction tightening or loosening is often to control the harvest numbers. When biologists want to harvest or restrict harvest of a species in certain areas they can use different season and weapon restrictions. By allowing a liberal use of a weapon such as ML with optics or smokeless along with newer bullet designs it can allow that user group to burn through the amount of harvestable animals in a game unit faster and you end up with shorter seasons. With more restricted regulations on that weapon system it can allow for a longer season. This is something several states in the west look at with harvest rates when season setting and quotas. IE the more successful a group is the faster they can be expected to burn through their allowable harvest. It can be a double edge sword. Gimme the easy button of a big scope and straight wall cartridge in a prime season but I might go from a 1 month season down to 7 days that are less prime days.

Be careful what you ask for.

Kris
 
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