1886 45-70 Load Data

[hmckinnellHawk in WY]

Is anyone loading for an original 1886 Winchester?

Looking at 250 to 400 gr shock hammers for elk.

Finding pressure signs is a challenge and published data is well below 2000 fps.

I was hoping for more.

 

[les]

Do you know what year your 1886 was made? I've had over a dozen of them. If you don't have one of the new one's designed for smokeless powder, you don't want to over push it. A rough rule of thumb is 1900 or newer. There are lots of loads over 2000fps. I'm not willing to share my loads unless I have seen your gun. I sold one of my treasured Nickel barreled lightweight 1886 Winchesters to a guy, and he blew it up using Ruger number 1 loads, and then blamed me!

 

[hmckinnellHawk in WY]

Thank you for replying.

This was my grandfather’s rifle, then my father’s, now mine. My grandfather died before I was born.

The records from Winchester show this rifle was first sold in Montana in 1923 which fits my grandfather’s history.

I could not get it to shoot better than 6 inches at 100 yards using lead bullets and mild 1886 loads from the Lyman manual. . A gunsmith thought he could bring it back by aggressive cleaning but ended up sleeving and recutting the rifling. I should ask him what twist rate.

The first three shots of Hammer 276 grain shock hammers over 41 gr IMR 4198 went into an inch and a half. I thought I was done but I can’t repeat that level of accuracy.

I am working with 250, 276, and 300 grain shock hammers and low 40’s of 4198. Accuracy is around four inches at 100 yards.

I’m not looking for more velocity but am thinking there may be better accuracy at higher pressures. So far, I have stayed below 28,000 psi according to Lyman and Quickload.

I also tried adding more crimp but collapsed a case instead. I need to work on setting up the seating die.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

[hmckinnellHawk in WY]

I should add groups are taller than wide. The ivory front plus sloping notch back sights are not conducive to accuracy. I am considering adding an original style Lyman peep sight to see if that improves things.

 

[les]

Peep would improve things a lot. You said, "The first three shots of Hammer 276 grain shock hammers over 41 gr IMR 4198 went into an inch and a half. I thought I was done but I can’t repeat that level of accuracy." That is strange that you can't repeat that. I think your gun is strong enough to handle any of the 28,000 psi loads.

In a sleeved 1886, I would be happy with that group. Stringing is usually an indication of a wide variation in velocities. What primer are you using? Oh, I have found that trimming the cases to 2.045 (Hornady's specs) works way better with the Hammer 250, 276, and 300. I would try trimming your cases first. You don't need a lot of crimp with the 45/70. You need some.

You should be able to work up to a load close to 55 grains of either IMR or H 4198. I would start at 45 grains. I really really like the 276 grain bullet.
I don't think the bullet is the problem. I would try trimming first. I'm getting a ragged hole with my two 45/70s and 45/90 at 100 yards.

 

[hmckinnellHawk in WY]

I was very happy to see three shots cloverleaf at 1.5 inches. That must have been a statistic anomaly because I cannot repeat it.

Groups are four inches tall and two inches wide so a peep sight would definitely help. Any source you recommend? Originality is not an issue because they were not on the rifle originally.

I will trim the brass. I didn't think of that. These cases have been fired three times.

The primers are Remington 9 1/2. I only ran a few shots over the chronograph so don't know if velocity variation is an issue. I don't think so but I will check.

QuickLOAD is indicating 55 grains of IMR 4198 would produce 50,000 psi with the 276 sh. I would only go there by working up slowly but the absence of pressure signs makes me nervous. 45 grains produce 30,000 psi according to QL. The relationship is obviously not linear. I suspect 45 grains is as far as I will go.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Very helpful.

 

[les]

I don't believe QuickLOAD numbers. The data I shared is coming from Hodgdon. Besides, the engraving pressure of Hammer Bullets is much lower than cup and core or lead.

It is also important to trim the cases to 2.045 inches.

Let me share a few things about myself. I am part of the "speed freaks" around here. I've pushed the 250 grain 458 bullet to over 3,000 feet per second in my 45/90. I'm also a member of the 5k club using a 300 RUM. I'm very careful, and don't want to blow up my guns. Hammers are a new paradigm in bullets and some of us are exploring the outer edges. I do think you can get very accurate groups with your gun and Hammers. Even my old Danish Rolling Block (1883) (see avatar) shoots them very well. It is a 11.7mm x 56mm (45/80) Here is a picture of my three 45 Cal. rounds. It shows the amount of crimp and where I have found an accurate crimp. From left to right - 45/70; 11.7/56; and 45/90.

 

[hmckinnellHawk in WY]

I believe you. I just want to stay well inside the bleeding edge. Like you, I am known to push envelopes but the absence of pressure signs is making me cautious. Happy for you to lead the way. You have given me a reason to go higher.

The crimp on those bullets is very close to what I'm getting with the shock hammers. The crimp on my lead bullets is more pronounced.

I will trim to 2.045.

I also plan to add a tang peep sight. My only concern is I don't want to remove the existing rear sight. Does anyone know if the existing rear sight blocks the sight picture from the peep sight mounted on the tang?

I have zero concerns about the bullets. Shock Hammers hammered an elk for me last month. I had both this 45-70 and a 300 PRC loaded with 199 Shock Hammers with me in the hide. With a big 5x5 bull at 177 yards, I reached for the PRC. Lots of good eating ahead.

My plan is to kill an elk with this rifle and then give it to my son along with 100 rounds that will shoot 1.5 inches at 100. He will then be the fourth-generation owner.

Thank you for sharing your experience with the 45-70 class calibers.

 

[hmckinnellHawk in WY]

Les,

I see the Hodgdon data you referenced.

That is a lot higher maximum load than what I have been using.

Working up slowly is the path ahead.

Thanks, again.

 

[les]

I also plan to add a tang peep sight. My only concern is I don't want to remove the existing rear sight. Does anyone know if the existing rear sight blocks the sight picture from the peep sight mounted on the tang?

You should have no issues with the existing rear sight.

 

[les]

I like your story! It is awesome to have a "family gun."

 

[joe16]

I would take Les's advice and run to the bank with it, he is spot on. Other than trying a different primer. I don't think I could add anything to what he told you other than, his rifles are slow

 

[les]

Come on Joe - Do we want to corrupt the new guy with really smoking loads with 5744 and 1680? He is playing it smart with good old 4198.

 

[joevh]

It is also important to trim the cases to 2.045 inches.

Les,
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm finally going to start loading for my Marlin 1885 Guide Gun 45-70. I have 250gr Shock Hammers. I'm using brand new Starline brass, 2.09". Can you elaborate on the reason for trimming the brass shorter? Is it to keep the OAL down for feeding purposes? Is that 2.04" reference to being able to seat the 276 in the top groove, or the 250? My old Speer manual states that seating the bullets to the forward cannelure results in an OAL of 2.545". Is that an industry standard max OAL for most lever guns? I'm happy to trim them down, just want to understand what I'm doing before I reduce my powder capacity. Even trimmed to that I'll be lucky to keep the OAL to 2.545" with crimping in the top groove. I've been loading all my life but will admit I know very little about loading for a lever gun. Any education you can provide will be much appreciated.

 

[joe16]

There's more enough velocity in 4198 for that old cowboy

 

[joe16]

Joevh

By trimming your brass you're lining the end of the brass up with the center of the top PDR band. At normal length, crimped in the center top band, the Bullet is too long for the Chamber of your Marlin. I discovered this last year while loading for my buddy's brand new Ruger Marlin. Resulting in powder in the action and a real stupid look on my face. Oh yeah, I squeezed the lever shut

Hope I didn't step on your toes Les

Joe

 

[les]

Les,
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm finally going to start loading for my Marlin 1885 Guide Gun 45-70. I have 250gr Shock Hammers. I'm using brand new Starline brass, 2.09". Can you elaborate on the reason for trimming the brass shorter? Is it to keep the OAL down for feeding purposes? Is that 2.04" reference to being able to seat the 276 in the top groove, or the 250? My old Speer manual states that seating the bullets to the forward cannelure results in an OAL of 2.545". Is that an industry standard max OAL for most lever guns? I'm happy to trim them down, just want to understand what I'm doing before I reduce my powder capacity. Even trimmed to that I'll be lucky to keep the OAL to 2.545" with crimping in the top groove. I've been loading all my life but will admit I know very little about loading for a lever gun. Any education you can provide will be much appreciated.

Yes - on the OAL for feeding purposes. The Marlins don't have much if any throat, so it helps on that end too. I own two of them. I have a guide gun too. It is one of my favorites. I've killed 2 bears and 3 elk with it. I gained velocity and accuracy with the trimmed brass and the 250 gr and 276 grain. I only had a sample pack of the 300's and I really like the two light pills.

 

[joevh]

Joevh

By trimming your brass you're lining the end of the brass up with the center of the top PDR band. At normal length, crimped in the center top band, the Bullet is too long for the Chamber of your Marlin. I discovered this last year while loading for my buddy's brand new Ruger Marlin. Resulting in powder in the action and a real stupid look on my face. Oh yeah, I squeezed the lever shut

Hope I didn't step on your toes Les

Joe

Thanks for the replies and clarification, guys. I initially purchased the 300's, and Brien talked me into trading for the 250's. I later went in to trade them for the 276's, and Brien talked me into staying with the 250's...I guess I'll load the 250's! And spend some time tonight trimming brass!
Do you have a favorite between the two, Les?

 

[les]

Not stepping on my toes Joe, Just sharing more knowledge. I love this place!

 

[les]

Thanks for the replies and clarification, guys. I initially purchased the 300's, and Brien talked me into trading for the 250's. I later went in to trade them for the 276's, and Brien talked me into staying with the 250's...I guess I'll load the 250's! And spend some time tonight trimming brass!
Do you have a favorite between the two, Les?

I lean toward the 250's in my lever actions and the 276 in the 45/90.