Gel

Gday
Tinker
I like that 👍
On the angle part of your gel what degree is the face of the gel

The part I’m looking @ on gel to potentially show is that transition zone & this may sound bizarre but my gel ( wallaby ) I can tell the difference between the 6.5 118&125 hht and that’s in a max 4 in chest cavity I can see it in first 1/2 inch but the blood spray pattern that also shows up of being significant on a pill’s capabilities also the hide @ entry shows so much ( have to be careful as we can get caught out on the triangle if we are not observant eg watch a frangible do magic work but lacking in other areas ) so I video so I can go back & look where I may have missed something this for me personally is easy but others like when joe was over here looked @ me dumbfounded & the you have to be joking as you can’t tell any difference but he saw it once pointed among other gel opps critters 😜🤪



The 118 I started tinkering with it but had to pull the pin on those tests as my body was telling me to stop bigtime & relayed information to the hammerboys & they were very understanding although I’m not one to quit I realised eventually I’m better off concentrating what I can do in areas better suited
but here’s where it’s frustrating real frustrating the hht is different but I’ve learnt subtle changes do make a difference to that bubble & Brian gave me more to think of ( we are in safe hands ) & the 118 I’m leaving alone & concentrating on my tests of various brands & my solid “Jess “bullet

The 118 still kills I need to make that clear but not to the level of that 125 & my thoughts were you crack how to get the 118 upto the 125 level man alive you’ve cracked another part of the code of bullet preformance

This is potentially where gel may find part of that code
Yes I’ve never had a pill design I’ve not worked out but man alive this one is frustrating me so much & look forward to your tests & others

Cheers
 
Muddyboots said:
Exactly my point. The gel testing has become the almost religious point of discussion. How far did it penetrate? Expansion? Retention? Bubble? Wound channel? Adnauseam! It seems the gel test has become the "gold standard" of bullets performance instead of real world animal testing with documented necropsy. Thankfully, we have both along with really good user input as well. I posted to get some discussion on what does gel REALLY tell us? IMO just a comparative analysis against other bullets not necessarily any indicator of true terminal performance.

So THANK YOU @Farleg for giving us the real world dope!

Ok @joe16 you have permission to run with this.
Click to expand...

Gday muddy
I got burnt by gel bad by listening to the one’s doing the tests & just been extremely lucky I have been able to test many theories & on sheer numbers worked out the how why & don’t

No need for thanks we are all helping ea other as I’m deficient in other areas & together this group here has found out some very interesting things that I’m sure has helped the hammerboys but more importantly the people who use them & then leads me to the most important part for me personally is to dispatch the chosen critter as quickly as possible over the widest velocity window yep basically it’s
“ cover more bases “

Have to chat when you finished hunting as bit more information on those long bullets but not to long no hurry plenty of time

Critters as Cbh said is a extremely variable media but I think the best trait is they run on impact a lot of the times & this is where they really excel over gel

Cheers
 
Gday Les
I think most have lost the art of hunting
As pulling the trigger is optional in a true hunting sense imo
now I’ll go to bat for some of those longrange hunters as it is a incredible high standard to achieve the issue is a lot don’t hold the skills to achieve the consistency required myself included & yes a lot of animals are wounded & I’ve been guilty of this many times just like critters @ closer ranges & really it should be just like getting a driver’s license
Yep we need to pass before we actually get to drive alone
Hunting is no different we should pass that proficiency needed in the field @ that range then take that as good to there & so on
Just my take but I try to install those traits in the new hunters I teach
Practice to that range become proficient & then we will go get critters

Cheers
 
You know, @Muddyboots , you are right. I see that acceptance of purely theoretical results gained from gel testing, but I mainly see it in the tacticool world as unlike hunters, they seldom ever shoot anything alive.

An example being is of a popular YouTube channel that tests AR15 loads for self defense. They determined that due to the FBI rule of 12-18", that the 73gr eld and 69gr TMK were insufficient for self defense as they fell short maybe half an inch. And yet, Roksliders have shown that these take game out much better than bullets hailed as excellent options i.e. 77gr OTM. They'll claim these same options as insufficient, while at the same time claiming a handgun load that goes 12-18" is sufficient. Give me a break. There's a huge difference between rifles and handguns.

Gel is a test phase. We have to respect the life of an animal, not inflicting undue suffering, by not shooting them with something that can't even pass the test of a "perfect" media. After it passes that, we test on game. If on game we see things lacking, we can always go back to the test phase and do small modifications to make it perform better.

Once I get the 57gr HHT in hand, I'm going to do a detailed analysis on the bubble, wound track, and petal fragments against the 68gr HHT and others I've tested before. I have a feeling that little things like the angle of the HP bevel, HP depth, and nose length to body ratios will have somewhat predictable effects on how they behave in media.
 
Joe has a dumb question

Since the gels not wrapped in a leather carcass/skin, has anybody attempted to wrap the block in shrink wrap to replicate the pressure that the skin would place on the media? The more you wrap it the more pressure held in.

Maybe this would slow down the rapid oscillation as the bullet passes through the gel creating a better picture of the permanent wound channel.

This place is awesome!!

Edited to fix my lack of command of the English language 😵‍💫
 
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joe16 said:
Joe has a dumb question

Since the gels not wrapped in a leather carcass/skin, has anybody attempted to wrap the block in shrink wrap to replicate the depression that the skin would place on the media? The more you wrap it the more pressure held in.

Maybe this would slow down the rapid oscillation as the bullet passes through the gel creating a better picture of the permanent wound channel.

This place is awesome!!
Click to expand...
Part of the reason why many don't do it, is because with most rifle bullets it really doesn't do that much. It zips right through with little change in terminals, possibly compresses the wound channel. Think of level 2 soft armor. Won't stop rifles.

If you wanted to simulate a very thick hided animal, like some dangerous game, then some natural leather hide might suffice. But again, for some reason the speed of a rifle bullet just more easily defeats this kind of protection.

I may try some leather just for the fun of it on a side test to see what effect we get. Thanks for the idea, @joe16
 
Oh boy....I love this place and you folks.
More results oriented testing!
Tinkerer - a while back we did extensive testing to determine the "sweet spot" in ideal ratio of nose to shank. We learned it's somewhere between 60/40 and 50/50, and may be affected by caliber diameter. We also tested stability factor. Above 1.5 to Very high (4-6+) is also beneficial. The tests are written up here in one of the threads.
 
This thread has me wondering if the gel had some sort of resistance placed every 6"? Maybe a piece of hide with fur on a frame that is part of a total frame that is incorporated into the gel? Basically pouring the gel into the mold with the frame in the mold? Maybe even stepped resistance using this internal frame concept? Use different resistance "panels" to represent different animals? Different resistance panels to represent hide, internal organs and bone?
 
A few years back, I did the panel thingy in coolers filled with water and that's when I decided I didn't need 40 in of penetration with the 200 Grainer in the 375 rum.

That was the birth of the fat girl (137 .375 cal).

Fellas, this place is awesome!!!
 
I have not read the entire thread here so…

Animals have 4 points of contact with the ground unless bedded.

Make 4 legs for your gel block.🤷🏼‍♂️

Otherwise you’re better comparing the results of a bedded animal when gel block lays on flat surface.
 
MeatBuck said:
I have not read the entire thread here so…

Animals have 4 points of contact with the ground unless bedded.

Make 4 legs for your gel block.🤷🏼‍♂️

Otherwise you’re better comparing the results of a bedded animal when gel block lays on flat surface.
Click to expand...
One of the really cool things about the bodies that we and animals reside in, is that our legs and balance center are in constant communication so anything that tries to take us off balance will trigger a response where the legs will make micro adjustments to counter the shift and keep you grounded. This response is stronger in some people than others! Table legs can't really do that, and neither do legs made of gel. The only thing we can do to sim that is to sit the block on something as stable and unmoving as possible. It does more resemble a bedded animal, in fact, so you're right there.

@Muddyboots
You absolutely could put small boards of plywood into a gel block melting tray to sim an impact with bones. What you could do is get a 20% gel equivalent, insert the plywood into the melted gel, then let it cool. Place this 20% portion (about 3-4" thick) in front of a 10% gel block. That would let you see what happens when you go through very tough muscle and bone. It'd be a time consuming setup that isn't easily recycled, but would be really good at showing you some more difficult targets.
 
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It has a place, however the more real terminal ballistics get, the more expensive. One reads its designed to duplicate pig flesh, and in turn human flesh. It certainly doesn't duplicate the shoulder of large boars. Which one can shoot cheaper than some products.

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Farleg said:
Gday
Tinker
I like that 👍
On the angle part of your gel what degree is the face of the gel

The part I’m looking @ on gel to potentially show is that transition zone & this may sound bizarre but my gel ( wallaby ) I can tell the difference between the 6.5 118&125 hht and that’s in a max 4 in chest cavity I can see it in first 1/2 inch but the blood spray pattern that also shows up of being significant on a pill’s capabilities also the hide @ entry shows so much ( have to be careful as we can get caught out on the triangle if we are not observant eg watch a frangible do magic work but lacking in other areas ) so I video so I can go back & look where I may have missed something this for me personally is easy but others like when joe was over here looked @ me dumbfounded & the you have to be joking as you can’t tell any difference but he saw it once pointed among other gel opps critters 😜🤪



The 118 I started tinkering with it but had to pull the pin on those tests as my body was telling me to stop bigtime & relayed information to the hammerboys & they were very understanding although I’m not one to quit I realised eventually I’m better off concentrating what I can do in areas better suited
but here’s where it’s frustrating real frustrating the hht is different but I’ve learnt subtle changes do make a difference to that bubble & Brian gave me more to think of ( we are in safe hands ) & the 118 I’m leaving alone & concentrating on my tests of various brands & my solid “Jess “bullet

The 118 still kills I need to make that clear but not to the level of that 125 & my thoughts were you crack how to get the 118 upto the 125 level man alive you’ve cracked another part of the code of bullet preformance

This is potentially where gel may find part of that code
Yes I’ve never had a pill design I’ve not worked out but man alive this one is frustrating me so much & look forward to your tests & others

Cheers
Click to expand...
Hello. I know it’s been a while. I’ve been busy but also decided to just read up before posting again lol. I had to comment though on this because I’m lost. Can you explain more what you mean by the transition zone you’re looking at? What do you mean by the triangle and bubble? I’ve seen those terms mentioned in other threads and I can’t figure it out 😂.

Todd
 
Gday Todd
Hold on Hair said:
Hello. I know it’s been a while. I’ve been busy but also decided to just read up before posting again lol. I had to comment though on this because I’m lost. Can you explain more what you mean by the transition zone you’re looking at? What do you mean by the triangle and bubble? I’ve seen those terms mentioned in other threads and I can’t figure it out 😂.

Todd
Click to expand...

Tinker is a way better explainer than me so he will chime in & pull me up where needed or others that can put their spin on it so easier to understand

The transition zone is the most important part of evaluation of a pill & where it shows it’s strengths & weaknesses

It is where the pill on impact of the critter or gel in this case gets to it’s fully expanded form that can be a mushroom or in case of hammers shed the petals
These vary considerably from brand to brand & across different resistances

The later is the hardest to achieve with consistency

In this transition zone is where you see it forms the bubble from the shapecharge that pills traits exhibit once again across various resistances is hard to achieve with consistency

So the bubble is the way the shapecharge expands the gel or critter & you can see this easier in the gel but a drone video my son took is priceless on seeing it in real life

If you get the good bubbles they don’t go to sideways or pencil like

Triangle @gltaylor explains this the best as I get tongue tied but
The triangle has three legs & you take one of them out of the equation & the triangle falls over hence triangle is not supported & you need to search for a pill /chambering that will support all 3 legs

Placement & penertration being the most important of the 2 legs

Hope that helps & ask away if unclear or further questions
Cheers
 
Hold on Hair,
You might search for those term and see what you get? These concepts were put forward and discussed at length, some time ago. Problem is, references and discussions are scattered out. My bet is best to look under Bullets and Ballistics.
The 5 cent cliff notes version is:

Bubble - temporary wound cavity at it's most violent point. When a Hammer sheds it's petals and transitions from it's flight form to it's terminal form (becomes a blunt wad cutter shaped cylinder), a tremendous amount of energy is expended. A relatively large balloon/bubble shaped cavity is formed inside the animal's body and organs. This bubble is very destructive of tissue and stretches it beyond it's elastic limits. Hence massive damage, shock to include rupturing vessels. Heart, lung tissue,etc., etc. Farleg caught this on video with a drone. The whole body of the deer shuddered upon impact. You ought to watch it!

The petals that shear off may either follow along the wound channel parallel to the shank, or they can radiate out and become their own little missiles doing damage. Petal pattern/behavior is a function of both bullet design and impact velocity.

Transition has to do with bullet penetration depth before bullet upset occurs. Some bullets upset and shed petals almost immediately upon impact. Others may travel inches into the animal before shedding petals. This again is dependent upon bullet design, impact velocity and resistance of the animal (small deer shoulder vs big hog shoulder, for example).

"The Triangle" is a very simple but key concept in bullet performance. To be successful, a bullet must support all 3 legs of the triangle to kill well.
If one leg of the triangle is not supported, bullet performance suffers or fails. The 3 legs are:

Shot placement
Wound channel (severe damage)
Penetration length

These are pretty self-explanatory.
1) The bullet must be placed to impact/damage the most critical organs and blood supply.
2) The bullet must be fully stable to remain oriented forward and not veer, tumble or otherwise go astray after upsetting, shedding petals and becoming a blunt cylinder shaped shank.
3) The bullet must impact and retain enough speed to shed petals, form a bubble and penetrate through tissue and hide, and hopefully exit. {EDIT: this will be clarified in Hammer Terminology thread}

There was tons more studied on most desirable impact velocity ranges and twist rates to get maximum stability factor.

Whew! You wore me out!
Anybody else, feel free to jump in!
 
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