Gel
- Thread starter Farleg
- Start date
ButterBean
Hammer Time Executive member
I Love This Place
Hold on Hair
Active member
Thanks guys. That helps a lot. Just different terminology than Iām used to. Way easier than continuing to search and try to piece it together. I was searching but found those same terms used a lot of other places but as though everyone already knew what it meant like in this thread too. So I finally decided to just ask. Thanks again.
Todd
Todd
@joe16 and I have been discussing new terminology of "slosh factor"!
DRAFT:
3 - turning animal over you hear interior of animal with intense sloshing with leakage out mouth, entry and exit!
2 - turning animal over you hear interior of animal with intense sloshing
1 - turning animal over you hear interior of animal with some sloshing
OK....time to do a new post.
Help me make up a list of "common" Hammer terms and concepts.
Us old timers (to Hammers) tend to forget that we are constantly gaining new members that have not accumulated our terminology over time.
I'll write the first draft, ya'll can help flesh it out til we get a finished version.
We can post it under Bullets and Ballistics and offer a one stop shop for terminology commonly used.
One of you adept folks can post it as a "sticky" when we finish.
Let's get started:
Slosh
Splat Factor
Shape Charge
Others?
Go!
Help me make up a list of "common" Hammer terms and concepts.
Us old timers (to Hammers) tend to forget that we are constantly gaining new members that have not accumulated our terminology over time.
I'll write the first draft, ya'll can help flesh it out til we get a finished version.
We can post it under Bullets and Ballistics and offer a one stop shop for terminology commonly used.
One of you adept folks can post it as a "sticky" when we finish.
Let's get started:
Slosh
Splat Factor
Shape Charge
Others?
Go!
Hold on Hair
Active member
Shape charge is another one I could use some extra definition. The others there are probably self explanatory. There might be others though Iām forgetting or have seen yet.
Todd
this was examples of temp and permanent wound.
joe16
Hammer Time Executive member
x2 on chunks
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
Gday GL
Great idea
That will definitely help & give clarity im sure
Pop is one that I think @Gerald Dilgard knows about on his autopsy results
Another is disco on that aorta he saw
When you look @ the veins even capillaries you see they are more open or ruptured in some cases on a greater % & further away from permanent wound channel) compared to c&c & other monos with the exception of the raptors & way less of extent apex but the hammers give us the best free flowing blood in critters kinda like a broadhead cut in someways
Others will crop up no doubt be great to get that altogether in one place
Cheers
T_the_Tinkerer
Hammer Time Executive member
Short answer is the bullet as it exists between contact with the target and it's final, terminal form.Hello. I know itās been a while. Iāve been busy but also decided to just read up before posting again lol. I had to comment though on this because Iām lost. Can you explain more what you mean by the transition zone youāre looking at? What do you mean by the triangle and bubble? Iāve seen those terms mentioned in other threads and I canāt figure it out.
Todd
It basically starts once expansion or fragmentation is initiated. This is the most vulnerable period for a bullet as it relates to failure. Ease of getting through this transition from aerodynamic form to terminal form differs across different bullet types. This is also where much of the massive transfer of kinetic energy into mechanical work occurs. The "bubble" is what they call this and you can see it both in tissue or in gel.
It looks like @riceman drew a nice easy to understand doodle. The reason why the cavities settle down after the "bubble" is because most of the kinetic energy has been transformed into mechanical work by that point.
kneedeep
Hammer Time Executive member
Sorry for the delay George
The āshaped chargeā refers to the overall shape and proportions of the nose of the bullet. The result is the shape of the ābubbleā in the animal. The term shaped charge is most commonly used on this forum to explain the shape of the ābubble.ā
A little background for anyone interested. I started using shaped charge in conversations with Farleg to explain all of these nose proportions in short when discussing how to get the desired bubble from many different calibers and weights across the board. The caliber size, nose profile or ogive, hollow point depth and hollow point diameter as well as velocity and retained shank all play a part in the resulting bubble. Change any of these proportions and you get a different bubble. Also animal resistance plays a big role in this equation, although certain bullets are not affected by animal resistance as much as most. This is where it gets really interesting and where some of the optimum weight per caliber discussion comes into play.
Hope this helps
Kneedeep
kneedeep
Hammer Time Executive member
Iāll also add that āpopā gets used a couple different ways. There is the pop sound that can be heard on impact of the bullet on an animal and then thereās the pop that is used when talking about the bubble.
An example of the pop heard on an animal is the 308/120LH. Itās heavy meplat needs a lost of resistance to initiate expansion. The excessive stretching of the hide before this heavy meplat pushes through causes a very audible pop.
When talking about the pop regarding the bubble, itās more difficult to see and explain. This pop is created when thereās enough animal resistance in relation to the shaped charge (overall nose profile) that it causes the copper to āballoonā or stretch just the right amount before it gives way. There is a fine line here as too rapid of a stretch and the pop is wide and short. Maybe it can be better explained by looking at the resulting petals recovered. When you you recover petals that are uniform thick banana peals, there wasnāt much pop. There can still be a good bubble just not much pop. When recovering petals that are all small flat irregular shaped petals, there was likely too much pop. The recovered petals that seem to show some initial peeling and then flatter wider petals towards the base seem to have the most desired pop. And more specifically the petals that tend to peal at the nose for roughly half the length of the petal, separate off and the base half of the petals are more flat and square shaped seem to be the most desirable.
Just my opinion
Kneedeep
An example of the pop heard on an animal is the 308/120LH. Itās heavy meplat needs a lost of resistance to initiate expansion. The excessive stretching of the hide before this heavy meplat pushes through causes a very audible pop.
When talking about the pop regarding the bubble, itās more difficult to see and explain. This pop is created when thereās enough animal resistance in relation to the shaped charge (overall nose profile) that it causes the copper to āballoonā or stretch just the right amount before it gives way. There is a fine line here as too rapid of a stretch and the pop is wide and short. Maybe it can be better explained by looking at the resulting petals recovered. When you you recover petals that are uniform thick banana peals, there wasnāt much pop. There can still be a good bubble just not much pop. When recovering petals that are all small flat irregular shaped petals, there was likely too much pop. The recovered petals that seem to show some initial peeling and then flatter wider petals towards the base seem to have the most desired pop. And more specifically the petals that tend to peal at the nose for roughly half the length of the petal, separate off and the base half of the petals are more flat and square shaped seem to be the most desirable.
Just my opinion
Kneedeep
kneedeep
Hammer Time Executive member
I hope Iām not sidetracking this discussion too far but I like to use examples to back up some of my theories and thoughts. The timing of two recent posts makes this easy to show right now. The following is regarding animal resistance and hide stretch.
I posted earlier in this thread about the amount of stretch of the hide on a mule deer:
An then another great video was recently posted of a monster whitetail that Farleg used as an example:
Both of these animals were shot with very similar pills. The WT with .284/172AH and the MD with the .284/177HH. And Iām guessing the velocity impacts were close enough to not make a big difference in results. Both shot locations were extremely similar as well.
The two images above basically show how much difference in resistance and hide stretch there can from one animal to the next. Although the WT has an extremely impressive rack, its body weight is not that impressive. It appears there is not a lot of fat and heavy meat on this deer. Also considering itās a Texas deer itās hide is likely thin, especially when compared to the MD. Looking at the MD it appears there is considerably more fat and meat on this deer. And considering the cold weather location of this MD, Iām assuming it has a fairly thick hide, especially when compared to the WT.
In summary I believe these two images show how much difference there can be in the stretch of the hide with two very similar pills. As for the resulting wound channels weāll never know. Itās my opinion that the optimally balanced and weighted pills will not show much of a difference in wound channels. But I believe the less than optimally balanced and weighted pills would show a significant difference in wound channels. Especially when considering the lower end of light and fast pills. What say you @Farleg ?
Kneedeep
I posted earlier in this thread about the amount of stretch of the hide on a mule deer:
TJās Muley Hit The Dirt 28 Nosler
28 Nosler + 177 Hammer Hunter @ 135 Yards = D.R.T.
hammerbullets.com
An then another great video was recently posted of a monster whitetail that Farleg used as an example:
Kyleās Buck 194-7/8ā
Kyle shot this Buck at 60-70 yards at Cotton Mesa Trophy Whitetail Ranch in Richland, Texas. He was using a 7 PRC and the 172gr Absolute Hammer Bullet with a MV of 2975FPS. This incredible buck scored 194-7/8ā. Congratulations Kyle and thanks for sharing.
hammerbullets.com
Both of these animals were shot with very similar pills. The WT with .284/172AH and the MD with the .284/177HH. And Iām guessing the velocity impacts were close enough to not make a big difference in results. Both shot locations were extremely similar as well.
The two images above basically show how much difference in resistance and hide stretch there can from one animal to the next. Although the WT has an extremely impressive rack, its body weight is not that impressive. It appears there is not a lot of fat and heavy meat on this deer. Also considering itās a Texas deer itās hide is likely thin, especially when compared to the MD. Looking at the MD it appears there is considerably more fat and meat on this deer. And considering the cold weather location of this MD, Iām assuming it has a fairly thick hide, especially when compared to the WT.
In summary I believe these two images show how much difference there can be in the stretch of the hide with two very similar pills. As for the resulting wound channels weāll never know. Itās my opinion that the optimally balanced and weighted pills will not show much of a difference in wound channels. But I believe the less than optimally balanced and weighted pills would show a significant difference in wound channels. Especially when considering the lower end of light and fast pills. What say you @Farleg ?
Kneedeep
MeatBuck
Hammer Time Executive member
Fwiw.
Ive seen several different shaped petals from the 156hh. From flat discs to snail shaped curls. All on blacktail bucks. The disc shaped have proven to be the most effective for penetration. The snails only made it to opposite hide from broadside shots.
Impact distances from 220-490yds.
Mv 3040fps.
Farleg
Hammer Time Executive member
Gday
Kneedeep
I say Iām about retired & glad to know your taking up where Iām leaving
I spent countless hours on trying to get those type of pictures last night & hey presto you showed what I was looking for
You make a valid point on the balanced pills & goes along the lines of what meatbuck witnessed picked up
The best balanced pills give us consistency
Look @ those pictures & I donāt like bubbles like those yes they kill as can be witnessed but you do not get the correct shapecharge & now we need to understand why & the transition zone is greater /longer on these type of pills & if you get to long of a transition zone for better words you get a Barnes like kill which needs speed
To short /early & bets are off also as wasted energy ( yes give it to me guys ) on the critter not in & you donāt get the petals to get pulled vacuumed along the wound channel
This is extremely hard to get a efficient pill to do this once the hp varieties are used on different resistances & velocities
Move that to the hht & watch the transition zone act more consistly over various resistances / impacts
Potentially you may see this in gel
& if one can nut that out on how to do that watch the fine tuning of pills go to the next level
Cheers
Kneedeep
I say Iām about retired & glad to know your taking up where Iām leaving
I spent countless hours on trying to get those type of pictures last night & hey presto you showed what I was looking for
You make a valid point on the balanced pills & goes along the lines of what meatbuck witnessed picked up
The best balanced pills give us consistency
Look @ those pictures & I donāt like bubbles like those yes they kill as can be witnessed but you do not get the correct shapecharge & now we need to understand why & the transition zone is greater /longer on these type of pills & if you get to long of a transition zone for better words you get a Barnes like kill which needs speed
To short /early & bets are off also as wasted energy ( yes give it to me guys
) on the critter not in & you donāt get the petals to get pulled vacuumed along the wound channel This is extremely hard to get a efficient pill to do this once the hp varieties are used on different resistances & velocities
Move that to the hht & watch the transition zone act more consistly over various resistances / impacts
Potentially you may see this in gel
& if one can nut that out on how to do that watch the fine tuning of pills go to the next level Cheers