Hammer Hunter 180 gr for 308 Win

Using Hornady COAL gauge, I'm getting exactly 3", measured 3x.

Load data from Hammer shows COAL of 2.88" for this load, so a jump of 0.12" ?

Does that sound right, or should I shorten to 2.8"?

I'm planning on using Win748 (CFE223 if I can't get what I want out of Win748), hoping for good groups at 2650 to 2750.

This is a load for my son's rifle. In higher elevations - Limpopo at ~4000 feet and the black bear country we like to hunt in Idaho around 4500-5000, even 2650 fps will deliver a lot of thump out to around 400 yards.
I would drop down at least one weight class. maybe 2 165 at the heaviest and 150 would serve you well. Copper is way different than cup and core.
 
gotcha. It's a Savage 116, so 10
Reason I asked about TR - twist rate is that the big 180 takes a lot of spin to stabilize. Your 1:10 will stabilize as long as your in the 1000 feet above sea level. Someone will correct me if that is not altitude bullets are profiled in. Get lower altitude than that things could get interesting.
Gordon's Reloading Tool

Planning on a 20 shot ladder in 0.2 gr increments.
Triple check bullet profile on GRT. Confirm it is what is on Hammers Website.
When you hit GRT message, "Working pressure close to the maximum permissible gas pressure!" Drop 5.0 to 4.0 grains below and work up.
You really don't need to be wasting bullets at .2 increments. .5 at minimal and I typically (several here) use 1gr increments to find pressure. Than back off.
Why that heavy a bullet in the little 308 case?
You're going to be seriously hampering case capacity and velocity.
I agree with above 180's are not ideal but will work standard hunting conditions. When I made switch from from CC bullets to Copper. I also was looking for the heaviest thing I could shoot. Until I started dropping some of my biggest Texas hogs with bullets between 75-125gr bullets in a bunch of different calibers. Speed kills with these coppers.

Now saying that I did just pick up a big heavy 203gr 358cal. But for 358cal its considered a pretty light bullet.

Keep us posted on your results.
 
@DanielOwenLynch,
Just curious?
Why that heavy a bullet in the little 308 case?
You're going to be seriously hampering case capacity and velocity.
Have you loaded much with all copper bullets?
Just asking. No offense intended.
No offense taken.

All else being relatively equal, sectional density trumps all when it comes to penetration. Yes, I'm aware that Hammer is a novel design, and that theory may go out the window with them, but it has worked for me for 40+ years.

I shoot heavy-for-caliber in everything except my 9.3x62, and only because Woodleigh is still recovering from their fire and the 325 gr Oryx are so hard to come by. And even the 285/286 gr bullets in .366 come in at a skosh over 0.3 SD.

In my 6.5x55, I shoot Woodleigh 160s (I had bought several boxes before the factory fire) and 155 gr Lapua Megas.

In my 280 AI, I shoot 175 gr Partitions. I have a good load for 160 gr A Frames, but I don't know what's going on with Swift. Last thing I saw available from them was .410 for 450/400. I haven't seen anything else available from them in more than a year.

In my 45-70, I shoot 425 gr and 525 gr Beartooth Piledrivers (and they're out of business, so I don't know what I'm going to do when I run out).

Still debating on what I want to load in my 404 Jeff. I'll probably end up going with the 400 gr Shock Hammers, but North Fork makes a 430 gr semi Spitzer. Somebody makes a 450 gr bullet for it, but off the top of my head, I can't remember who.

The 308 load I started this thread over is for my youngest son. He's a lieutenant in the navy (helo pilot). He isn't at the point where he can buy guns for a specific purpose, and since I reload, I thought I'd take a stab with these 180s. I really only need to get this load to somewhere between 2650 and 2750 fps for him to have a 400 yard rifle for high elevation hunting. Even if I could push the 166 gr Hammer Hunters to 2900 fps, trajectory and energy at any given distance are nearly the same with the heavier, slower 180 grain. And like I said, SD trumps velocity on penetration. Out to 400 yards, there's just no practical difference in ballistic arc between the 166 and the 180, assuming a 200 yard zero.

I was messing around with COAL last night, and it looks like somewhere around 2.96 to 2.97 will fit the mag and still give me 0.02+ a bit off the lands, and be just at the edge of the shoulder. I've always had good luck with Varget in my target 308, but given the length of these bullets, I'm going with a spherical, CFE223 and Win748. I have about 10 lbs of 2000MR, so I might give that a whirl, too.

I'm headed to South Africa in August, so I need to get some reloading and range sessions done with my 9.3x62. May be a month or 3 before I get to LD for this 308. But, my son is deployed to the sandbox until October, so I have time.
 
Reason I asked about TR - twist rate is that the big 180 takes a lot of spin to stabilize. Your 1:10 will stabilize as long as your in the 1000 feet above sea level. Someone will correct me if that is not altitude bullets are profiled in. Get lower altitude than that things could get interesting.

Triple check bullet profile on GRT. Confirm it is what is on Hammers Website.
When you hit GRT message, "Working pressure close to the maximum permissible gas pressure!" Drop 5.0 to 4.0 grains below and work up.
You really don't need to be wasting bullets at .2 increments. .5 at minimal and I typically (several here) use 1gr increments to find pressure. Than back off.

I agree with above 180's are not ideal but will work standard hunting conditions. When I made switch from from CC bullets to Copper. I also was looking for the heaviest thing I could shoot. Until I started dropping some of my biggest Texas hogs with bullets between 75-125gr bullets in a bunch of different calibers. Speed kills with these coppers.

Now saying that I did just pick up a big heavy 203gr 358cal. But for 358cal its considered a pretty light bullet.

Keep us posted on your results.
GRT didn't have the profile for the 180 HH, so I had to create that profile myself. The only thing I'm not clear on is the boat tail numbers - length/depth, diameter A, and diameter B. IDK if you have GRT, but my construction/material value is H2H1B-2D1N1. Playing around with the config for flat base vs boat tail doesn't seem to make a huge difference in pressure/MV calculations.

And thanks, and duly noted on the ladder increments. There are a lot of places where I'm a big risk taker, but LD isn't one of them. If 0.5 increments will show me what I need to know, I'll work with that. I've been told, absent official Hammer load data, to start low with comparable bullets in the Nosler book. Nolser shows a starting load for their 180s at 40 gr of Win748. I'll start at 40.5 and go to 45.0, assuming I don't see any signs of excessive pressure.
 
My understanding is that sectional density is only useful as a comparison between bullets of the same construction type. Monometal bullets in general and hammers specifically penetrate way beyond equivalent weight lead core bullets, if penetration is your concern I definitely think that you could drop down in weight and have no lack of penetration

Nice cartridges you have there! My first ever rifle was a custom Mauser with a barrel in 6.5x55 and another in 9.3x62, I shot 140gr and 286gr woodleigh protected points respectively till switching to hammers, now shooting 97AH @ 3500fps & 185gr modified HH @ 3100fps.
Yet to take any game with the 97AH but penetration on the lightweight 9.3 has been excellent. In 30Cal I’m a big fan of the 137HH (yet to try any HHTs)

Lots of members here with a lot more experience than I have who can chime in with good advice but personally I wouldn’t go heavier than the 150ish grain class in 308win
 
I do have a question i was hoping would be touched on its own, since the OP was mainly concerned about COAL.
Why does the published Hammer load data show a COAL longer than SAAMI spec for this bullet?
The col that we list in the data is set at the shortest possible col for the given bullet. It is then noted if this length is longer or shorter than SAAMI. By using the shortest possible oal in the data it is less likely that someone that doesn't know how to find the lands will accidently have a load that is jammed and spike pressure. If someone seats longer than the listed oal but still of the lands then the predicted pressure of the start load will decrease due to more case space. It is nearly impossible to list an oal that will be the same distance from the lands in every rifle due to varying throat depths and lead angles into the lands. In other words we have chosen the most fool proof starting data possible.

We recommend starting with the longest oal that will function in the rifle without touching the lands. If you can get to the lands then we don't recommend any closer than 20 thou off. By starting with your longest oal if accuracy is not as expected after working your ladder up to top end, watching for pressure signs in your rifle, then adjusting seating depth leaves you with only one way to go. Start working deeper to see if there is a sweet spot. Or you can tinker with different primers, charge weight, or tuning with a crimp.

I hope this helps.
 
I have no problem with choosing the 180gr Hammer Hunter in the 308 win. The only wrong choice would be a bullet that requires more twist than the rifle being used. After that it is personal preference/ opinion on what bullet would be the best. With full stability the bullets will work as designed and I am confident they will work on game better than anything else.

Trophy Game Safaris has been running the 181gr Shock Hammer in their house gun for years. They run them at a very modest 2600 fps and have used that rifle for hundreds of not thousands of animals up to and including giraffe. Tino and company have many years of experience hunting with all different kinds of bullets and run the Hammers exclusively. Not because we made them any kind of a deal but because they get more clean kills with less tracking than anything else out there. Even at the modest velocity and conventionally heavy bullet for caliber. They have reduced poor performance on game so much that they offer a 10% discount to clients that use Hammer Bullets. Now they also run a 243 win with the 70gr Hammer Hunter and use that rifle for everything up to eland. So, they also have a very good understanding of the high velocity impact capability of the Hammers. This year they have made the switch to the Hammer HHT. They are very impressed with on game performance and will not be going back to their tried and true loads they ran before.

My personal choice for the 308 win would probably be lighter. @DanielOwenLynch don't let these guys talk you out of your bullet choice. When you are ready to try some lighter pills, do it with confidence that they will get the job done very well. Most likely more spectacularly than you have witnessed in the past. I look forward to getting your other rifles going with Hammers.
 
I have no problem with choosing the 180gr Hammer Hunter in the 308 win. The only wrong choice would be a bullet that requires more twist than the rifle being used. After that it is personal preference/ opinion on what bullet would be the best. With full stability the bullets will work as designed and I am confident they will work on game better than anything else.

Trophy Game Safaris has been running the 181gr Shock Hammer in their house gun for years. They run them at a very modest 2600 fps and have used that rifle for hundreds of not thousands of animals up to and including giraffe. Tino and company have many years of experience hunting with all different kinds of bullets and run the Hammers exclusively. Not because we made them any kind of a deal but because they get more clean kills with less tracking than anything else out there. Even at the modest velocity and conventionally heavy bullet for caliber. They have reduced poor performance on game so much that they offer a 10% discount to clients that use Hammer Bullets. Now they also run a 243 win with the 70gr Hammer Hunter and use that rifle for everything up to eland. So, they also have a very good understanding of the high velocity impact capability of the Hammers. This year they have made the switch to the Hammer HHT. They are very impressed with on game performance and will not be going back to their tried and true loads they ran before.

My personal choice for the 308 win would probably be lighter. @DanielOwenLynch don't let these guys talk you out of your bullet choice. When you are ready to try some lighter pills, do it with confidence that they will get the job done very well. Most likely more spectacularly than you have witnessed in the past. I look forward to getting your other rifles going with Hammers.
Steve, you and Brian are terrific owners! Thank y’all so much for your partnership with us!
@DanielOwenLynch, I’ve read every Post on this forum for the last two years… I believe that if the bullet of choice has an SG over 1.6 and impact velocities over 2000 fps for your intended range, you are golden!🤘
 
I have no problem with choosing the 180gr Hammer Hunter in the 308 win. The only wrong choice would be a bullet that requires more twist than the rifle being used. After that it is personal preference/ opinion on what bullet would be the best. With full stability the bullets will work as designed and I am confident they will work on game better than anything else.

Trophy Game Safaris has been running the 181gr Shock Hammer in their house gun for years. They run them at a very modest 2600 fps and have used that rifle for hundreds of not thousands of animals up to and including giraffe. Tino and company have many years of experience hunting with all different kinds of bullets and run the Hammers exclusively. Not because we made them any kind of a deal but because they get more clean kills with less tracking than anything else out there. Even at the modest velocity and conventionally heavy bullet for caliber. They have reduced poor performance on game so much that they offer a 10% discount to clients that use Hammer Bullets. Now they also run a 243 win with the 70gr Hammer Hunter and use that rifle for everything up to eland. So, they also have a very good understanding of the high velocity impact capability of the Hammers. This year they have made the switch to the Hammer HHT. They are very impressed with on game performance and will not be going back to their tried and true loads they ran before.

My personal choice for the 308 win would probably be lighter. @DanielOwenLynch don't let these guys talk you out of your bullet choice. When you are ready to try some lighter pills, do it with confidence that they will get the job done very well. Most likely more spectacularly than you have witnessed in the past. I look forward to getting your other rifles going with Hammers.
Thanks Steve. You and I corresponded some months back about this for my 404J. I'm tempted by the 307 gr, but I have to imagine the recoil of a 307 gr bullet shoved out at 2600+ fps is just eye-watering.
 
Reason I asked about TR - twist rate is that the big 180 takes a lot of spin to stabilize. Your 1:10 will stabilize as long as your in the 1000 feet above sea level. Someone will correct me if that is not altitude bullets are profiled in. Get lower altitude than that things could get interesting.

Triple check bullet profile on GRT. Confirm it is what is on Hammers Website.
When you hit GRT message, "Working pressure close to the maximum permissible gas pressure!" Drop 5.0 to 4.0 grains below and work up.
You really don't need to be wasting bullets at .2 increments. .5 at minimal and I typically (several here) use 1gr increments to find pressure. Than back off.

I agree with above 180's are not ideal but will work standard hunting conditions. When I made switch from from CC bullets to Copper. I also was looking for the heaviest thing I could shoot. Until I started dropping some of my biggest Texas hogs with bullets between 75-125gr bullets in a bunch of different calibers. Speed kills with these coppers.

Now saying that I did just pick up a big heavy 203gr 358cal. But for 358cal its considered a pretty light bullet.

Keep us posted on your results.
According to http://kwk.us/twist.html, 10 twist is sufficient. Based on the explanation on the bottom of the page, it looks like they use Greenhill equation, or a variant of it.

1712243159318.png
 
I have no problem with choosing the 180gr Hammer Hunter in the 308 win. The only wrong choice would be a bullet that requires more twist than the rifle being used. After that it is personal preference/ opinion on what bullet would be the best. With full stability the bullets will work as designed and I am confident they will work on game better than anything else.

Trophy Game Safaris has been running the 181gr Shock Hammer in their house gun for years. They run them at a very modest 2600 fps and have used that rifle for hundreds of not thousands of animals up to and including giraffe. Tino and company have many years of experience hunting with all different kinds of bullets and run the Hammers exclusively. Not because we made them any kind of a deal but because they get more clean kills with less tracking than anything else out there. Even at the modest velocity and conventionally heavy bullet for caliber. They have reduced poor performance on game so much that they offer a 10% discount to clients that use Hammer Bullets. Now they also run a 243 win with the 70gr Hammer Hunter and use that rifle for everything up to eland. So, they also have a very good understanding of the high velocity impact capability of the Hammers. This year they have made the switch to the Hammer HHT. They are very impressed with on game performance and will not be going back to their tried and true loads they ran before.

My personal choice for the 308 win would probably be lighter. @DanielOwenLynch don't let these guys talk you out of your bullet choice. When you are ready to try some lighter pills, do it with confidence that they will get the job done very well. Most likely more spectacularly than you have witnessed in the past. I look forward to getting your other rifles going with Hammers.
Also meant to add this, and maybe it'll help clarify my thinking on heavy-for-caliber.

While I enjoy punching holes in paper or ringing steel from 1000 yards, if I screw up on windage, no harm done. For me, there's just too much that can go wrong when trying to put a hole in an animal past 400 - 500 yards. That's my upper limit, and conditions would have to be near perfect for me to shoot 500 yards. And 90% of my hunting is in the deer woods of south Louisiana, where shooting distances are often no further than 50 or 60 yards.

There's just so little difference in ballistic arc and energy at any given distance out to about 400 yards, for me, heavier just makes more sense. Below, a comparison between a 151 gr SH at 3k fps and a 180 gr HH at 2650 fps. Also to keep in mind these are sea level calculations. In Limpopo or the Bitterroot, the ballistics are just that much better for both, but still comparable.

1712243698983.png1712243727695.png

I believe it was Robert Ruark who said "there's no such thing as too much gun." My corollary to that is there's no such thing as too much bullet.
 
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We crossed in cyberspace.
I enjoyed Ruark most of those big bores prompting his comment had stability factors much higher than this.
We've seen lighter bullets, out penetrate the heavier. Even in cup and core.
Just citing the process most of us have been through.
Most of us also brought the "heavy for caliber" concept with us. Had to shake it for optimal results.
 
Stability
Input Data
Caliber:0.308 inBullet Weight:180.0 gr
Bullet Length:1.480 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
Muzzle Velocity:2600.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:10.0 in
Temperature:59.0 °FPressure:29.92 in Hg
Output Data
Stability:1.478
At sea level
 
For some reason my screen shot inputs aren't coming through correctly.

He gave a 10.4" twist on his, and I just went with that.

So the difference in our end number.
 
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