Testing with handgun calibers?

cbjr said:
Somehow when I edited my posts, the pics of the fired bullets got lost. Here they are again. @Farleg see the nice flat wadcutter front after expansion?
Click to expand...
cbjr,

Did you do any tests on angled shots with the jackhammer?

I don’t know if it really matters but if that “meplat lip” is not flat/even does it penetrate straight line? I wonder if it would be better if this lip didn’t expand/deform. Would the jackhammer then perform more like a hydro? Although I remember there’s more to the shape of the hydro than just the cup that makes it perform.

In the end, either way, how will it perform on my whitetail? I’ve shot a handful of deer with a pistol and most have died quicker than I expected. All where under 60 yards with cup and core, expanding.

Kneedeep
 
@kneedeep,
Without the expansion, they would not be legal to hunt with in alot of places.

As far as angled shots:
On game it might make a difference if any of the shoulder bones were hit at an angle first. Into ribs first, I think they would break easily enough for the nose to keep it shape pretty close to symmetrical. Haven't shot any animals yet. It just so happens that I have acquired more of the yellow jugs and will have to hit one on an angle and still try to catch it.
 
Gday
Thanks for those pics cbjr
I’d like to see the higher impact ( visual) preform like that @ the loser impacts yet still retain that straight meplat @ the higher impact as that’s going to be the hard thing to achieve without it becoming too rounded @ the higher impact but yep looks good

Now on those tests & I don’t want to sound negative as we have to have something & something is better than nothing right so good job 👍

So here we go & goes for gel also so how do we interpret this media when we come to critters 🤷‍♂️
Water & gel or like deform pills better than the low resistance/ impact on /in critters

The issue I see is partly as kneedeep put forward ( be interesting to see if those angled containers have a issue on pill & also the gel guys be interesting for you guys to see what happens with that also & the added part of what about between the ribs & deflated lungs due to breathing ( im being anal ) & it’s the least resistance we have & media is way harder than this let alone a normal in the crease shot & will often mask what a pill will do but when you look @ that semi cup , it’s got more going for it than a perfectly flat meplat @ these lower impacts

I’ll step back to the solid world for a comparison as I’ve got better knowledge there to hopefully explain better

The 2 best solids imo are the hydro & #13 ceb
& on paper most will take the ceb as a solid is designed to penetrate right but it’s only 1/2 of the equation imo & while extremely important , it gives us a smaller wound channel than the hydro ( the hydro weight offerings is also a down fall )
Yet the hydro will give us enough penertration on pretty well most critters for what we need eg it will end to end a buff where a ceb would go through 1&1/2 of them ( not done that but man try catching one of them ceb where I can a hydro )

The hydro also has the ability to work better @ lower impacts ( both still kill but if your going to get stomped I want the quickest killing pill possible across all velocities & that’s the hydro )

Now we enter the angles & both go dead straight regardless of what they hit on way in & both extremely well balanced but I’ll give ceb the nod above hydro for being able to stay straight right to the end on the couple I’ve caught ( also dug some out of trees or termit mounds after exiting critters & we’re always straight)

Also north fork had a expanding solid that was pretty good but needed more velocity than handgun velocities to work

Now also why the hammer boys were over here they had some experimental expanding solids & that information maybe used on the handgun pills to get that expanding solid that works for you guys 🤷‍♂️ but once again your talking handgun velocities so it’s hard but those pics show promise

Now kneedeep angles
The advantage one has is hammers copper itself as it’s simple the best @ being able to bite the bone ( penertrate & penertrate straight ) while the copper alloy has enough give to not fracture the copper structurally & once we get those uneven meplats ( you can have a bit of unevenness but same as rounded ) we get erratic results so is this going to help the handgun velocities 🤷‍♂️but it can’t hurt but I’m more of that cup to go above caliber & retain that flat front meplat
Also with lower velocities on those expanding solids the deformation on the meplat wasn’t seen to be a big concern as it only slightly deformed it , so had some leeway before the angled meplat becomes a concern also but the mechanical broadhead problems still need to be taken into consideration or if that happens all bets are off also
A little like all pills you get to a point of being a too rounded meplat then all bets are off

I don’t know the answers & await the outcome for you guys

But to interpret the above 🤷‍♂️😜🤣
I think a cup has more promise than a flat meplat


Cheers
 
Personally, and its really a limited experience kind of statement. I would prefer not to waste velocity/energy expanding a handgun bullet. Such is life, as I was also one of those emphasizing the "market" need for an expanding bullet to be legal most places.

I prefer non expanding, wide meplat handgun bullets. Also in some low velocity rifle applications.
 
This is a informative thread, and expansion shown on cbjr’s pics are fascinating. It’s a big contrast to me because I’ve recovered Hammer Hunter rifle bullets with front portion fragmenting away while leaving rear portion intact.
I’ll be also be working up these 44mag 205-grain Jackhammers soon but in a rifle with 22-inch barrel with 1-20twist. Thank you!
 
HARPERC said:
Personally, and its really a limited experience kind of statement. I would prefer not to waste velocity/energy expanding a handgun bullet. Such is life, as I was also one of those emphasizing the "market" need for an expanding bullet to be legal most places.

I prefer non expanding, wide meplat handgun bullets. Also in some low velocity rifle applications.
Click to expand...
Gday Carl
A foot in ea camp I see 😜🤣😇

All seriousness
I like the part of not wasting energy. ( although I dislike energy 😜 )

To delve a little deeper
Let’s look @ wasted energy

& to be totally honest I don’t know how to put this but I’m going to try ( I believe it’s all in the triangle )
I get the wasted energy on the higher velocities as you can see quite clearly how the energy is lost quickly in a wound channel on those mushrooms compared to the wad cutter styles due to the consistency of ea wound channel but it can also be to our advantage of the mushroom if the penertration length required is not where the mushroom starts it’s decline in wound channel size now if the penertration required is @ the back end of that mushroom’s total penertration length or exceeds it ( inadequate penertration) the wad cutter will no doubt give us a better kill as penertration is better & fulfilling the wound channel all the way through the critter

& that’s where we can look @ the hydro vrs the #13 ceb all @ same velocities
The hydro gives us a wider wound channel but not the total length of penertration of the ceb so to me the ceb is more efficient hence not wasting energy but I’ll take the hydro nearly every day as I’m confident in knowing how far they will penertrate & choose accordingly that produces very adequate penertration
Now the next part of if we go to the part of the equation & compare that to the mushroom pill ( yes I get not all mushroom pills behave the same eg shapecharge & is this your wasted energy ? ) that would be found on the far side of a broadside shot
This pill also has the same velocity yet gives us the last 1/3 of the wound channel that’s only the expanded calibre wound

Now that’s all good until the angles come in then the mushroom doesn’t get all the way into the vitals or through them
That I’m pretty sure we all get

But now we enter handgun velocities & as long as penertration length is not left wanting we don’t get the damage from the bubble or the temporary wound channel being sufficient enough to make anything bigger than the size of the pill going through the critter & it is a lot like the last 1/3 to 1/4 of most higher impacts wound channel

So I’m for a mushroom on these velocities & I want it flat not rounded

Here’s those old wheel weight pills I use to make & I’ll see if I can catch one in a critter soon to show how they mushroom
270894D3-578A-45D7-88B3-C88B237EEE9E.jpeg

Looking forward to the wasted energy part from you as our conversations are always one I look forward to & where I’m missing your point as you will soon show me what I’m not reading correct

Thanks in advance I love the ticking this place gives
Cheers
 
Farleg said:
Gday Carl
A foot in ea camp I see 😜🤣😇

All seriousness
I like the part of not wasting energy. ( although I dislike energy 😜 )

To delve a little deeper
Let’s look @ wasted energy
Click to expand...
Just 2 camps 1) Staying legal, they write tickets here because they have a pen. 2) Limited but good experience with handgun bullets that don't expand, but have a good shape.

Energy? I struggled with a way to express that. I don't believe in energy as something useful in determining lethality. A big reason is it takes energy to deform a bullet, and no one has yet found a way to explain how much we lose in that process. That was the energy I was speaking of.

I would rather have a well shaped bullet not losing speed as it traverses the vitals. I'd rather have the nice square edges. In these bullets we aren't getting a plus from the petals, so why mess with expansion other than staying legal.

A hard cast Keith style bullet, kind of is the standard for handgun bullets IMO. Although I've seen some good results with some expanding handgun bullets, they all share that initial square profile. Good results meaning short time to tip over.

To restate I have limited experience with handgun bullets, and some of that is with pistol cartridges in rifles.

My bear protection has been a .44 special loaded hot with a 255 grain hard cast, for many years. Deformation unlikely, penetration guaranteed. Oddly more legal than an FMJ, just cause its lead.

Good to see you getting back to the conversations.
 
HARPERC said:
Just 2 camps 1) Staying legal, they write tickets here because they have a pen. 2) Limited but good experience with handgun bullets that don't expand, but have a good shape.

Energy? I struggled with a way to express that. I don't believe in energy as something useful in determining lethality. A big reason is it takes energy to deform a bullet, and no one has yet found a way to explain how much we lose in that process. That was the energy I was speaking of.

I would rather have a well shaped bullet not losing speed as it traverses the vitals. I'd rather have the nice square edges. In these bullets we aren't getting a plus from the petals, so why mess with expansion other than staying legal.

A hard cast Keith style bullet, kind of is the standard for handgun bullets IMO. Although I've seen some good results with some expanding handgun bullets, they all share that initial square profile. Good results meaning short time to tip over.

To restate I have limited experience with handgun bullets, and some of that is with pistol cartridges in rifles.

My bear protection has been a .44 special loaded hot with a 255 grain hard cast, for many years. Deformation unlikely, penetration guaranteed. Oddly more legal than an FMJ, just cause its lead.

Good to see you getting back to the conversations.
Click to expand...
Gday Carl
Trying to get back into the conversations with the little time I’ve had to read up then add the way my brain puts things together
Yep you guys do well to even get a interpreter to understand 🤣
Another couple weeks & back to some normality here I hope & a cat hunting im going 😜

You make good points & especially like the part of the pill not loosing any velocity through the critter 👍👍👍yep I like that 😎& hard cast in pistols do work rather well although I don’t understand how let alone why
The best of I know is Alex with a pistol & buff some years back ( not present in those years just know Alex’s expertise & knowledge is one I hold in a very high regard & greatful for the knowledge he teaches/ shares & he always asks Howz Carl going & one we need to get you 2 guys together oneday then some stuff would be talked about 😇 )
We are playing @ the moment with the big bores & going to be big pills going slow 😱 ( also I’ve got ones to go fast 😜 ) into a few deer & other critters so I’ll have some pics as they become available

So far it’s a interesting journey & way over my head but I’m enjoying the mental stimulation this produces

I’m still searching /asking around for that information on how much Energy is used in the transition of the pill from its initial form @impact to full form to exit
As if that is found it will tell us a lot of what is actually going on

I want to reply /discuss a lot more but times against me @ present so got to run but thanks guys for the ticking these subjects give me
Cheers
 
Has anyone ever even tried to quantify how much energy is used up in changing from initial (flight form) to terminal form?

What would be measured and how?

Would it be expressed as a percentage?

Like - a bullet uses 20-45-60% of it's energy transitioning from initial to "final" form?

Never saw/read anything about this??
I don't even like "energy" numbers😜.
That's why I'm curious if it would be a percentage?

This seems like an imponderable item to me 🤯
 
Gday GL
That’s the big one & how 🤷‍♂️
What I do see is where pills slow down to quickly by either shedding to much weight quickly & or expanding to quickly for that critter creating that mushroom which can be effective no doubt but then we have the rate that the shedding occurs @ which is also a issue if it’s not right so yes I’d love to see the actuals

Hmmm it’s one for the superminds here to work out your points & get back to us with those figures so get a cracking you guys .
try taking that over to lrh & watch the white noise brigade along with the peanut gallery go to work on that 🤣🤣🤣 some smart ones & good people over there though

Cheers
 
gltaylor said:
Has anyone ever even tried to quantify how much energy is used up in changing from initial (flight form) to terminal form?

What would be measured and how?

Would it be expressed as a percentage?

Like - a bullet uses 20-45-60% of it's energy transitioning from initial to "final" form?

Never saw/read anything about this??
I don't even like "energy" numbers😜.
That's why I'm curious if it would be a percentage?

This seems like an imponderable item to me 🤯
Click to expand...
Imponderable, but in my mind important. I've asked the question numerous times over the years, and it gets quiet.

I did try to look up some way to roughly figure, and math was always way over my head. It will depend on material etc. There are formulas, but none specific to our application.

Especially in "energy dump" scenarios. How much energy was used destroying that bullet? More than a pass through?

I did see one attempt to quantify energy loss due to pass through, and in that instance it wasn't much. Chroograph set up after gel or such, I can't recall specifics.
 
Disclaimer: I’ve hit a few highlights, not everyone’s comment so I could be missing or repeating pertinent information.


Farleg, one thought about (traditional bore, not rifle caliber handguns) handgun bullets expanding at lower velocities may have to do with a bit softer material content being used - even soft over hard lead cores such as some custom bullet makers do in a partition style bullet (the bullet used by Doc Larry Rogers to take his African lion with a .416 Taylor TC handgun was built so, soft in front of hardened lead).

For example, the XTP Mag bullets are designed for high end velocities whereas regular XTPs are more along the commercial (slower) product lines. The Mags also come with a love/hate relationship. Some saying they’re too tough (tough ran slow or just too tough) and don’t expand while others have no complaints at all (ran according to designed speed).

Swift A Frames show a reliable expansion from Holy Hell velocities down to an anemic 900fps.

Helluva discussion, regardless.
 
Handgun400 said:
For example, the XTP Mag bullets are designed for high end velocities whereas regular XTPs are more along the commercial (slower) product lines. The Mags also come with a love/hate relationship. Some saying they’re too tough (tough ran slow or just too tough) and don’t expand while others have no complaints at all (ran according to designed speed).

Swift A Frames show a reliable expansion from Holy Hell velocities down to an anemic 900fps.

Helluva discussion, regardless.
Click to expand...
I didn't realize the XTP was in 2 versions. We used the originals in a .44 carbine on bear, and found expansion great, but preferred the penetration of other brands.

The Swift A-Frame I saw used on a big grizzly worked well.

Some great discussions here. Often somebody has the answer. Sometimes we just ponder the "imponderable" to quote @gltaylor.
 
HARPERC said:
I didn't realize the XTP was in 2 versions. We used the originals in a .44 carbine on bear, and found expansion great, but preferred the penetration of other brands.

The Swift A-Frame I saw used on a big grizzly worked well.

Some great discussions here. Often somebody has the answer. Sometimes we just ponder the "imponderable" to quote @gltaylor.
Click to expand...
Yessir. The XTP Mag has 2 cannelures and is made for “Ruger only” loads which are also ok in TCs, Freedom Arms and BFRs. There’s a pretty significant difference in the two.
 
joe16 said:
Too many variables

jm2c
Click to expand...
Hey joe
Ease up on the nail polish remover unless your trying to clear your mind then you’ll agree

Oh yes this is possible

Look outside of what we know & look @ what we would need to know to put that puzzle together

Then Usually starting @ the end & working backwards gives us what is needed to find those answers

Just a few cryptic 2cents worth to get you ticking 😎🤣

Cheers
 
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