Velocity windows

Gday Steve

Thankyou for that reply
It shows me I still have a lot of educating to do with you so I’ll break this post of yours down
BUT
first clear your head
You are stuck in a rut & not seeing the wood in the trees

So here goes but can’t get a different colour up 🤷‍♂️so I’ll put “my response” below the part I’m answering
Steve Davis said:
The most critical and difficult impact velocity that must be dealt with is low. Down to 1800 fps. If we can't get reliable performance down to this level then the bullet doesn't get marketed.

My response 1 : please explain reliable performance & what the pill is meant to do & that is 1700 with the hht or is it not that now
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Because even if we educated and advertised that a bullet shouldn't be used on game below 2300 fps (just picked a number), it will get used that way. Then we will be in the position telling hunters that they shouldn't have used that bullet. We can avoid this situation by never marketing that bullet.

MY response 2 : you obviously didn’t read my part of still working ea side of the OPTMAL velocity window or I didn’t read it correctly so I’ll try this
The optimal velocity window of say 2300 to ? a figure still works either side of that
————————
Our current bullet design and marketing is the right way. Cover the low velocity and continue to strive for the widest range of effective impact velocity.

My response 3 : please explain effective & please include that exceptional with the hht @ the higher end 3200 plus but hone in on the 3300 /3400 plus please & being caliber specific won’t hurt either
2nd part it’s not my business so I can only suggest on a way to get ahead of what’s coming so you have a chance to become a leader not a follower
————————
As Fordy would say "Tick as many boxes as possible".

My response 4 : yes I will stand by that 100% as it’s what gives us the greatest chance of lessening the “impact to tip “
& that’s what can be improved on absolutely no doubt yes I’ve got enough preformance data sheets to confirm this is not a theory
————————
Ticking less boxes with boutique bullets for narrow velocity windows and educating hunters on which one to use is not a good idea. It might be a good mental exercise and fun to talk about.

My response5 : goes back to the first clear your head & my response 2 part
I am also not in this for a “good mental exercise” & I think my proven track record should speak enough of what I’m in search of & what I do
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I still have yet to see any of our bullets that retain 60-70% not be able to handle high velocity impacts on animals and kill very effectivity. I am sure there is a speed limit but I don't know what it is.
Click to expand...

My response: this goes again with the part of optimal
Please explain effectively again
Or maybe this will be easier
Yes both of these will kill

Do you want a coke can hole in the lungs after that shoulder impact or the hydro caliber hole through those lungs
——————


I’ve kept a lot out of this post & im not trying to belittle im trying to raise the bar

So it’s pretty simple for me just tell me to move on & I’ll keep educating for which I’ll shelve this system to my data book & await till the day I see the next opening

But I would really appreciate answers to my responses so I understand what stage you are @
Nothing more nothing less than a constructive conversation

Cheers 🍻
 
We will not market bullets that will be marginal or non expanding at moderately low vel. The only way we will do this is with a bullet like the Claw Hammer or Jack Hammer that are already in their terminal form before impact. The probelms associated with poor performance at low velocity greatly out weighs the small potential for a bit larger wound channel at higher vel. Currently our high velocity terminal performance is second to none. Trying to optimize high vel performance at the sacrifice for low velocity performance is a non starter. Increasing high vel performance without sacrificing low velocity performance will always be on the table.
 
Farleg said:
Gday big game please define “exceptionally well “or @ a minimum your understanding of this & I would like Steve to comment on that also

I will hold back information until this part is defined somewhat as then I’ll know what I’m dealing with

Please don’t take that statement above as being bitchy or sarcastic as it’s 100% NOT !! . all I want to know is do I need to show , yes educate some more before one understands where one can get even better results than they have today

Once again not having a go just trying to understand the level I need to start over fresh & what better way than understanding where people see it from their eyes & the standard they accept

The last part of 3500 plus impacts is fascinating to here that portrayed id suggest we band together as hunters not draw a line in the sand as that will splinter us as a group & that will not be good for future generations to come
Jm2cw

Cheers
Click to expand...
Hi Farleg.

I’m not trying to give definitions or set boundaries. I’m honestly just trying to understand what you and others are trying to say. In my responses I’ve echoed back my understanding to confirm whether or not I’ve gotten your point. It seems you’re suggesting differentiating bullets by velocity band and I’m trying to understand the why, what velocities we’re talking about, and the performance on target that is motivating your suggestions in the first place.

I do come at this topic with a strong bias towards the low-end velocity effectiveness as the upper end is not likely to be relevant to me. But I’m still curious to understand.

Thanks
 
Carsyn.22 said:
I guess to define my understanding of acceptable performance. I’m looking for the coke can/shape charge/bubble that hammers in general and hht in particular have become known for, I want that section of the wound path to be at it’s best in my normal impact ranges (current hunting grounds that’s going to be in the 75-300 yard range) perhaps biased towards the lower velocity in case of a somewhat longer shot and because I am shooting smaller cartridges (.308 based family), if that means I can’t expect better than a hydro solid type wound when I get that unexpected 20yard shoulder knuckle shot then I’ll settle for that any day of the week, close shots like that can in my experience be placed with much higher confidence and a 50-100 yard dash is a lot easier to watch the animal potentially even watch it go down than if that same scenario happens on the other end of the window at 300+ yards. That’s a bit more of where I am coming from and situation I’m working with.
I am interested in more information (better education)regarding what velocity windows and shot angles see the best coke can wound channel for each pill. I’m one of those that doesn’t get to kill many animals so pretty much take farleg gl knee deep and Steve at their word regarding what works and what doesn’t.
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Gday carsyn22
Great post & that idea on this is maybe a better way of showing

Thankyou I’ll strive to show more detail on this as it becomes available

I’ve got a fair bit to go through still & my sons away so I’ve got all the farm duties to do so it may take a bit but like the thread on the AHT it will come just sorry it takes so long

Cheers
 
As normal Farleg is spot on. What works well for me won't work for someone else in their setting. I don't even know where to go to find a 600 yard range, or even 400 yards. My shots are 200 yards or under. And a few that were damn near bayonet range. Yes I once had to slowly move my barrel to let a whitetail past me. I just love the Lever Hammers for my type of hunting, but for out west, they would prove less than ideal. Hammers always seem to be the most accurate bullets and placement is the real name of the game. I have yet to have any Hammer Bullet fail to drop a game animal in it's tracks or within sight. I have never tracked an animal hit with a Hammer and would bet I never will. When I first joined this forum, to be honest I thought most of you were nuts. Launching bullets 3-500 fps faster than (normal). But after trying it for myself I see the wisdom of it. While we may all be a little nuts, and a lot OCD. We share our screwball ideas, and they seem to work out when others try them. I have been called a Hammer Head. A title I wear with pride. All hunters have hunting stories, but none of mine include tracking it for half a mile. When others tell me their stories I just chuckle to myself.
 
BigGame said:
Hi Farleg.

I’m not trying to give definitions or set boundaries. I’m honestly just trying to understand what you and others are trying to say. In my responses I’ve echoed back my understanding to confirm whether or not I’ve gotten your point. It seems you’re suggesting differentiating bullets by velocity band and I’m trying to understand the why, what velocities we’re talking about, and the performance on target that is motivating your suggestions in the first place.

I do come at this topic with a strong bias towards the low-end velocity effectiveness as the upper end is not likely to be relevant to me. But I’m still curious to understand.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Gday biggame
Thanks for the reply gives a little more perspective/clarity

As much as I hate low velocity it’s the easiest to work with to see if a pill works as advertised or not & then we have to delve deeper into the actual workings or not & in real terms so many companies have so many varied so called workings it just pi$$es me as no stock standard so you have to adjust your criteria for that company but I don’t agree or like that & that’s where “impact to tip” comes in as it dosent distinguish how much that pill opens /sheds /mushrooms or not it’s actual critter reactions & basically that’s all in till it drops & why we need multiple to gain a better indicator of where the pill actually lies


So moving on
I’ll try to explain in the following way

Let’s take 2 pills & ea end of the velocity spectrum’s

The best I’ve seen any hammer is the 338 210 hht in the low end velocity effectiveness which was taken down to the 1610 mark ( it will go lower but how low I’m unsure but 100/50 ish should pull it up as the hht works till it dosent & that’s usually seen in dropping 50 fps intervals well that’s what I do today as I’ve learnt more as in my old days I used 200 then the 1st hht prototype was 100 today I’m @50 to try & gain more knowledge I believe it has shown to be the case )

Now this pill @1610 works @ a level that no other hammer has shown the same ability to get close too ( I’m yet to test the 375 that low as that’s the only other pill that has the potential to knock it off it’s perch @ the low end but the mid range the 375 has it ever so slightly covered)

so that’s what possible & should be easy to replicate as it’s either a simple formula or scale to the next size & hey presto you should have the same outcome right
NO WAY as it has been extremely frustrating to try & work these hht out ( I can usually work a pill out fairly quickly but man these hht have had me guessing so much but ea pill I know more yet it also showed first how little I did know ) & I still don’t think it’s fully worked out yet as you watch the 220 not even come close to this pill yes even without it in my hand or critter it won’t be & that I’m pretty sure on ( I like to put things out that challenges myself & not concerned if I need to eat crow or not so far it’s served me well & I’ve come to njoy it lol ) so the question is it going to be as good , better or fall in behind
So that level is unknown but the 210 we now have from basically 1600 too 3000 impacts
This covers how long the transition zone is across these impacts the various resistances @ ea of them
Where the pill gives it pop the width & length of wound in first stage of petal shedding
Then the 2nd stage & how long it holds it for ( still a touch to work out here )
Then where it tapers off to the basic useless penetration part of a pill ( the last part of its journey)

So that pill is a very good one & why I put it up as I’ve previously mentioned not many pills excite me so it gets my nod as one of the best

let’s do the 6.5 118hht as it was talked about somewhat previously
That pill works down to 1780
But dosent start it’s good work until around 2100
Then by 2850 you see the pattern of petals radiating outwards & by 3000 the petals are on their own path ( not advisable for getting through big shoulders but works well in the ribs @carsynn22 here you go ithats where this pill is better suited on different placement /resistances for better outcomes )

So now if we hone in on your bottom end impacts the 210 gr hht in 338 is the superior pill hands down & that’s only from the mechanical operation part as when you take meplat size into the equation you see better impact to tip on the whole in the difference of these 2 meplats


The hard part is understanding these low impact differences & seeing your impacting in this area it’s one I’d pay extreme attention to where these pills actually work as you can see from above it can be quite varied & without knowing you may fall into a world of omg what happened here just the same on the top end velocity

To even the ledger on the 6.5 so not to leave people hanging
if your going to impact that 118 in the 2100 to 2850 range use it with confidence but if a possibility your going to be outside of that use I’d personally switch to the 112 or the 125 ( twist applicable )

The 112 for example works down to 1680 & top end is better also
125 worked down to 1710 & that pill needs no explanation on how good it is on big critters
You align this with impact to tip & you then get a way better indication of the pills that work better
Hope that helps & also why I like more taylored velocity windows not blanket but that’s me & how I go about working pills out
& ea to their own
But I have shelved my thoughts on the whole velocity windows as I think it’s better if I do the above as these are actuals & if I educate enough of these maybe I might bring this topic up again but for now the data I have won’t see light of day

Cheers
 
Last trip to Africa was the first time we used Hammer HHT's on game. It was the maiden voyage for the 118gr HHT fired from my wife's Creedmoor. It took 5 animals from just above 1800 fps to 3000 fps impacts. All one and done with no tracking. Heaviest animal was a sable at 60y breaking down both shoulders and dropping him on the spot. We did not change that bullet from it's original design and won't. That bullet works very well.
 
@Farleg Intriguing! In my naivete I think all that would need to happen to sort these Hammers out would be to just add a description on the website that "This bullet exhibits full Hammer performance to XXXX velocity". Then a guy can select the right bullet for his cartridge. I see there are presently some descriptions on some Hammers along these lines.
 
OK, I may get fussed at, but here goes....

First up: I'm a speed demon, through and through.

Most of my impacts are at 3800 (or above).
I have many rifles that impact at or below 3100, but little interest in them now. Saving them for grand kids, etc.

The only HHT I've tested is the 118 6.5 HHT.
At 3800+ impact, front on, broadside, and quartering both sides, results were as Farleg mentioned above. BIG bloodshot, petals radiated sideways/not forward at impact, short bubble (wide but shallow), much tissue destruction around impact, full penetration of shank (no petals following), and very narrow (solid style) wound channel. I would not test the left side quartering paunch shot because I did not trust the results and expected a long run and possibly lost deer.
The 118 6.5 does not suit my type of shooting.

Now... ...as I've said many times, keep a bullet within it's design perameters for optimum performance.
If you shoot the 118 HHT in a Grendle - CM - or .260 Beanmore - THEY DO JUST FINE.

My next tests (assuming I get depredation permits this year) will be the 6.5 125 HHT at hyper velocity. I now have a new rifle that should push the 125s to nosebleed speeds🤪😁🤭

The new rifle also pushes the 123 AH to 3810, so they're loaded and ready for testing. One poor beaver made a mistake and lost most of his mind🫣
 
BFD said:
@Farleg Intriguing! In my naivete I think all that would need to happen to sort these Hammers out would be to just add a description on the website that "This bullet exhibits full Hammer performance to XXXX velocity". Then a guy can select the right bullet for his cartridge. I see there are presently some descriptions on some Hammers along these lines.
Click to expand...
I see no way to quantify a maximum impact vel. Unless we can find a point where the bullet loses its ability to retain weight. IE it breaks into a bunch small pieces and loses its integrity. We have not been able to find that point of impact vel. Not with the copper that we use.
 
gltaylor said:
OK, I may get fussed at, but here goes....

First up: I'm a speed demon, through and through.

Most of my impacts are at 3800 (or above).
I have many rifles that impact at or below 3100, but little interest in them now. Saving them for grand kids, etc.

The only HHT I've tested is the 118 6.5 HHT.
At 3800+ impact, front on, broadside, and quartering both sides, results were as Farleg mentioned above. BIG bloodshot, petals radiated sideways/not forward at impact, short bubble (wide but shallow), much tissue destruction around impact, full penetration of shank (no petals following), and very narrow (solid style) wound channel. I would not test the left side quartering paunch shot because I did not trust the results and expected a long run and possibly lost deer.
The 118 6.5 does not suit my type of shooting.

Now... ...as I've said many times, keep a bullet within it's design perameters for optimum performance.
If you shoot the 118 HHT in a Grendle - CM - or .260 Beanmore - THEY DO JUST FINE.

My next tests (assuming I get depredation permits this year) will be the 6.5 125 HHT at hyper velocity. I now have a new rifle that should push the 125s to nosebleed speeds🤪😁🤭

The new rifle also pushes the 123 AH to 3810, so they're loaded and ready for testing. One poor beaver made a mistake and lost most of his mind🫣
Click to expand...
Now I need to load a hot rod 6.5mm with the 118gr HHT and take it deer and elk hunting.
 
Here is another thought for you. We have a hard time getting shooters to purchase bullets that they have enough twist to stabilize. We have it all over the website in bold red writing: MAKE SURE YOUR BARREL TWIST IS FAST ENOUGH FOR THIS BULLET BEFORE ORDERING

I think this is easier to understand than carrying two different but the same bullets for long or short range hunting scenarios. Then once you have the range on your animal you then load the proper colored tip for the shot. Do you guys have any idea how many calls we would get to complain that the buck of a lifetime was lost after making a perfect shot behind the shoulder. I can hear the question now. "Why would you make a bullet like that?" Then I guess I would be left with, "Why didn't you read the website when you ordered them?" Yeah, that's not going to happen.
 
Steve - You are asking for Common (which isn't common) Sense (which there isn't much off). I'm afraid that too many don't have a clue even though the forum talks about it all of the time, that a great mono bullet like the Hammer is very very different from a cup and core. I'm sure I am talking to the choir here. I'm not sure what percent of your customers just order the weight of the cup and core they are used to using and think that it translates to not only Hammers or any of the other monolithic bullets. You should see the shaking of heads when I tell my friends that I like hunting mule deer with my 300 RUM with a 138 grain bullet. That don't understand the lethality of that bullet leaving the muzzle at 3,850 fps. GL Taylor talked me out of hunting them with the 124HH at 4,200. Too much of a good thing!

Over the years I have met several hunters who have complained about missing nice animals. Upon further inquiry, they shared a version of the following: "I had it bore sighted to 100 yards, it should have dropped the animal." Upon further investigation, most hadn't even shot their gun until the hunt! I'm sorry you have to deal with the public.
 
I think the regulars on this forum (myself included) forget that there are thousands(?) of Hammer shooters that DON’T frequent this forum and benefit from the incredible knowledge and detailed discussions contained here.
I feel like Steve and Bryan hear from those customers a lot more than we can imagine.
I’m afraid I’m an apologist by nature (see what I did there?😬), so I apologize for any part I play in the frustration @Steve Davis may incur from HAMMERTIME’s pushing of the envelope.
…That being said, I LOVE that neither Hammer, nor its most fervent customers, are willing to settle for “good”!🤘
 
LightTheTower said:
I think the regulars on this forum (myself included) forget that there are thousands(?) of Hammer shooters that DON’T frequent this forum and benefit from the incredible knowledge and detailed discussions contained here.
I feel like Steve and Bryan hear from those customers a lot more than we can imagine.
I’m afraid I’m an apologist by nature (see what I did there?😬), so I apologize for any part I play in the frustration @Steve Davis may incur from HAMMERTIME’s pushing of the envelope.
…That being said, I LOVE that neither Hammer, nor its most fervent customers, are willing to settle for “good”!🤘
Click to expand...
These are arguably the best!
IMG_3385.jpeg
🤣🤣
 
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