Velocity windows

Farleg said:
Gday biggame
Thanks for the reply gives a little more perspective/clarity

As much as I hate low velocity itā€™s the easiest to work with to see if a pill works as advertised or not & then we have to delve deeper into the actual workings or not & in real terms so many companies have so many varied so called workings it just pi$$es me as no stock standard so you have to adjust your criteria for that company but I donā€™t agree or like that & thatā€™s where ā€œimpact to tipā€ comes in as it dosent distinguish how much that pill opens /sheds /mushrooms or not itā€™s actual critter reactions & basically thatā€™s all in till it drops & why we need multiple to gain a better indicator of where the pill actually lies


So moving on
Iā€™ll try to explain in the following way

Letā€™s take 2 pills & ea end of the velocity spectrumā€™s

The best Iā€™ve seen any hammer is the 338 210 hht in the low end velocity effectiveness which was taken down to the 1610 mark ( it will go lower but how low Iā€™m unsure but 100/50 ish should pull it up as the hht works till it dosent & thatā€™s usually seen in dropping 50 fps intervals well thatā€™s what I do today as Iā€™ve learnt more as in my old days I used 200 then the 1st hht prototype was 100 today Iā€™m @50 to try & gain more knowledge I believe it has shown to be the case )

Now this pill @1610 works @ a level that no other hammer has shown the same ability to get close too ( Iā€™m yet to test the 375 that low as thatā€™s the only other pill that has the potential to knock it off itā€™s perch @ the low end but the mid range the 375 has it ever so slightly covered)

so thatā€™s what possible & should be easy to replicate as itā€™s either a simple formula or scale to the next size & hey presto you should have the same outcome right
NO WAY as it has been extremely frustrating to try & work these hht out ( I can usually work a pill out fairly quickly but man these hht have had me guessing so much but ea pill I know more yet it also showed first how little I did know ) & I still donā€™t think itā€™s fully worked out yet as you watch the 220 not even come close to this pill yes even without it in my hand or critter it wonā€™t be & that Iā€™m pretty sure on ( I like to put things out that challenges myself & not concerned if I need to eat crow or not so far itā€™s served me well & Iā€™ve come to njoy it lol ) so the question is it going to be as good , better or fall in behind
So that level is unknown but the 210 we now have from basically 1600 too 3000 impacts
This covers how long the transition zone is across these impacts the various resistances @ ea of them
Where the pill gives it pop the width & length of wound in first stage of petal shedding
Then the 2nd stage & how long it holds it for ( still a touch to work out here )
Then where it tapers off to the basic useless penetration part of a pill ( the last part of its journey)

So that pill is a very good one & why I put it up as Iā€™ve previously mentioned not many pills excite me so it gets my nod as one of the best

letā€™s do the 6.5 118hht as it was talked about somewhat previously
That pill works down to 1780
But dosent start itā€™s good work until around 2100
Then by 2850 you see the pattern of petals radiating outwards & by 3000 the petals are on their own path ( not advisable for getting through big shoulders but works well in the ribs @carsynn22 here you go ithats where this pill is better suited on different placement /resistances for better outcomes )

So now if we hone in on your bottom end impacts the 210 gr hht in 338 is the superior pill hands down & thatā€™s only from the mechanical operation part as when you take meplat size into the equation you see better impact to tip on the whole in the difference of these 2 meplats


The hard part is understanding these low impact differences & seeing your impacting in this area itā€™s one Iā€™d pay extreme attention to where these pills actually work as you can see from above it can be quite varied & without knowing you may fall into a world of omg what happened here just the same on the top end velocity

To even the ledger on the 6.5 so not to leave people hanging
if your going to impact that 118 in the 2100 to 2850 range use it with confidence but if a possibility your going to be outside of that use Iā€™d personally switch to the 112 or the 125 ( twist applicable )

The 112 for example works down to 1680 & top end is better also
125 worked down to 1710 & that pill needs no explanation on how good it is on big critters
You align this with impact to tip & you then get a way better indication of the pills that work better
Hope that helps & also why I like more taylored velocity windows not blanket but thatā€™s me & how I go about working pills out
& ea to their own
But I have shelved my thoughts on the whole velocity windows as I think itā€™s better if I do the above as these are actuals & if I educate enough of these maybe I might bring this topic up again but for now the data I have wonā€™t see light of day

Cheers
Click to expand...
The data should be allowed to see the light of day so we can make educated decisions on using the best pill for our individual needs. I can get a lot of things done with a leatherman but that make it the best tool for the job in every situation?
 
It sounds like some think that, regardless of the speed it is traveling, a bullet must be of a design that will deliver some energy into the target. There was at least one who hypothesized that a FMJ bullet traveling at the same speed as an expanding bullet would not kill as well because of a reduced delivery of energy.
Energy Kills
 
Edd said:
It sounds like some think that, regardless of the speed it is traveling, a bullet must be of a design that will deliver some energy into the target. There was at least one who hypothesized that a FMJ bullet traveling at the same speed as an expanding bullet would not kill as well because of a reduced delivery of energy.
Energy Kills
Click to expand...
You canā€™t have one without the other, itā€™s the same as horsepower and torque and you are correct but that test was done eons ago, lots of things have changed I 5 decades
 
ButterBean said:
You canā€™t have one without the other, itā€™s the same as horsepower and torque and you are correct but that test was done eons ago, lots of things have changed I 5 decades.
You are on the wrong forum trying to sell energy numbers but by all means stick with what works for you
Click to expand...
 
Farleg said:
Gday biggame
Thanks for the reply gives a little more perspective/clarity

As much as I hate low velocity itā€™s the easiest to work with to see if a pill works as advertised or not & then we have to delve deeper into the actual workings or not & in real terms so many companies have so many varied so called workings it just pi$$es me as no stock standard so you have to adjust your criteria for that company but I donā€™t agree or like that & thatā€™s where ā€œimpact to tipā€ comes in as it dosent distinguish how much that pill opens /sheds /mushrooms or not itā€™s actual critter reactions & basically thatā€™s all in till it drops & why we need multiple to gain a better indicator of where the pill actually lies


So moving on
Iā€™ll try to explain in the following way

Letā€™s take 2 pills & ea end of the velocity spectrumā€™s

The best Iā€™ve seen any hammer is the 338 210 hht in the low end velocity effectiveness which was taken down to the 1610 mark ( it will go lower but how low Iā€™m unsure but 100/50 ish should pull it up as the hht works till it dosent & thatā€™s usually seen in dropping 50 fps intervals well thatā€™s what I do today as Iā€™ve learnt more as in my old days I used 200 then the 1st hht prototype was 100 today Iā€™m @50 to try & gain more knowledge I believe it has shown to be the case )

Now this pill @1610 works @ a level that no other hammer has shown the same ability to get close too ( Iā€™m yet to test the 375 that low as thatā€™s the only other pill that has the potential to knock it off itā€™s perch @ the low end but the mid range the 375 has it ever so slightly covered)

so thatā€™s what possible & should be easy to replicate as itā€™s either a simple formula or scale to the next size & hey presto you should have the same outcome right
NO WAY as it has been extremely frustrating to try & work these hht out ( I can usually work a pill out fairly quickly but man these hht have had me guessing so much but ea pill I know more yet it also showed first how little I did know ) & I still donā€™t think itā€™s fully worked out yet as you watch the 220 not even come close to this pill yes even without it in my hand or critter it wonā€™t be & that Iā€™m pretty sure on ( I like to put things out that challenges myself & not concerned if I need to eat crow or not so far itā€™s served me well & Iā€™ve come to njoy it lol ) so the question is it going to be as good , better or fall in behind
So that level is unknown but the 210 we now have from basically 1600 too 3000 impacts
This covers how long the transition zone is across these impacts the various resistances @ ea of them
Where the pill gives it pop the width & length of wound in first stage of petal shedding
Then the 2nd stage & how long it holds it for ( still a touch to work out here )
Then where it tapers off to the basic useless penetration part of a pill ( the last part of its journey)

So that pill is a very good one & why I put it up as Iā€™ve previously mentioned not many pills excite me so it gets my nod as one of the best

letā€™s do the 6.5 118hht as it was talked about somewhat previously
That pill works down to 1780
But dosent start itā€™s good work until around 2100
Then by 2850 you see the pattern of petals radiating outwards & by 3000 the petals are on their own path ( not advisable for getting through big shoulders but works well in the ribs @carsynn22 here you go ithats where this pill is better suited on different placement /resistances for better outcomes )

So now if we hone in on your bottom end impacts the 210 gr hht in 338 is the superior pill hands down & thatā€™s only from the mechanical operation part as when you take meplat size into the equation you see better impact to tip on the whole in the difference of these 2 meplats


The hard part is understanding these low impact differences & seeing your impacting in this area itā€™s one Iā€™d pay extreme attention to where these pills actually work as you can see from above it can be quite varied & without knowing you may fall into a world of omg what happened here just the same on the top end velocity

To even the ledger on the 6.5 so not to leave people hanging
if your going to impact that 118 in the 2100 to 2850 range use it with confidence but if a possibility your going to be outside of that use Iā€™d personally switch to the 112 or the 125 ( twist applicable )

The 112 for example works down to 1680 & top end is better also
125 worked down to 1710 & that pill needs no explanation on how good it is on big critters
You align this with impact to tip & you then get a way better indication of the pills that work better
Hope that helps & also why I like more taylored velocity windows not blanket but thatā€™s me & how I go about working pills out
& ea to their own
But I have shelved my thoughts on the whole velocity windows as I think itā€™s better if I do the above as these are actuals & if I educate enough of these maybe I might bring this topic up again but for now the data I have wonā€™t see light of day

Cheers
Click to expand...
Farleg, thanks for this response.

Iā€™m still a bit unclear on what terminal characteristics at the upper end tip a bullet from optimal to sub-optimal in your definition. If that explanation already exists, just point me to that thread.

I understand youā€™re talking about terminal phases in three parts: 1) initial expansion pop/bubble, 2) penetration with permanent wounding, and 3) penetration with only temporary wounding. Clearly the first two phases are most meaningful. Your explanation above seems to put a lot of focus on the behavior of the shed petals.

Some further explanation of optimal vs. sub-optimal vs. failure would be helpful.
 
Edd said:
It sounds like some think that, regardless of the speed it is traveling, a bullet must be of a design that will deliver some energy into the target. There was at least one who hypothesized that a FMJ bullet traveling at the same speed as an expanding bullet would not kill as well because of a reduced delivery of energy.
Energy Kills
Click to expand...
Now we're pretty close. KE as a total number doesn't mean much. It only represents potential.

Delivering "some energy" and how much "reduced" it is when traveling through the vitals, are the questions. Which as yet I'm unaware of a calculation that tells me that.

As pointed out bullet design, and construction matters.
 
Edd said:
It sounds like some think that, regardless of the speed it is traveling, a bullet must be of a design that will deliver some energy into the target. There was at least one who hypothesized that a FMJ bullet traveling at the same speed as an expanding bullet would not kill as well because of a reduced delivery of energy.
Energy Kills
Click to expand...
For your viewing pleasure , SPEED KILLS
 
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