Velocity windows

Please don't misunderstand me.
Not interested in high/low velocity bullets being developed. My intended point was use the bullet as it was designed.

The HHT was/is designed to operate optimally in cartridges capable of mid range velocities. They do just fine in their range. This is where most hunters operate.

To Steve's point, the 100gr BO was (as it turns out) designed and functions fine at mid range impact velocities. At 4400 fps it does poorly. We tried to find it's limits - and succeeded. That's the intent of testing to the extremes.

No bullet on the market today (and probably ever) can function optimally at all velocity impact ranges.

We choose the bullet that best suits our intended application, animal size and expected impact velocity. This is the basis for making charts/tables of different bullets in Steve's inventory. (There are several threads on this topic).

Part of Farleg's and others' testing is tweaking bullets to find the best balance for formation of the "bubble" and the direction and length of the "shape charge". (Look at the thread on Hammer terminology).

We can absolutely change the performance and balance of a bullet by making Very minor alterations to the bullet. This is the benefit of Farleg's (and others') testing and animal evaluation. It's also the reason for testing several versions of a bullet prior to it’s release. Some versions do not make the cut. Other times, bullets are dropped when improved versions come about.

I imagine Farleg (and maybe others) will chime in at some point. None of this is intended to belittle Hammers in any way. They are by far and hands down the best bullet on the market today. Steve and Bryan are way ahead of the industry. We all want them and Hammers to remain on the leading edge and leading the way.
 
gltaylor said:
Please don't misunderstand me.
Not interested in high/low velocity bullets being developed. My intended point was use the bullet as it was designed.

The HHT was/is designed to operate optimally in cartridges capable of mid range velocities. They do just fine in their range. This is where most hunters operate.

To Steve's point, the 100gr BO was (as it turns out) designed and functions fine at mid range impact velocities. At 4400 fps it does poorly. We tried to find it's limits - and succeeded. That's the intent of testing to the extremes.

No bullet on the market today (and probably ever) can function optimally at all velocity impact ranges.

We choose the bullet that best suits our intended application, animal size and expected impact velocity. This is the basis for making charts/tables of different bullets in Steve's inventory. (There are several threads on this topic).

Part of Farleg's and others' testing is tweaking bullets to find the best balance for formation of the "bubble" and the direction and length of the "shape charge". (Look at the thread on Hammer terminology).

We can absolutely change the performance and balance of a bullet by making Very minor alterations to the bullet. This is the benefit of Farleg's (and others') testing and animal evaluation. It's also the reason for testing several versions of a bullet prior to it’s release. Some versions do not make the cut. Other times, bullets are dropped when improved versions come about.

I imagine Farleg (and maybe others) will chime in at some point. None of this is intended to belittle Hammers in any way. They are by far and hands down the best bullet on the market today. Steve and Bryan are way ahead of the industry. We all want them and Hammers to remain on the leading edge and leading the way.
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100% second this post
 
Gday
Looks like I started a bit again 🤔🤷‍♂️🤣
First off for the new comers please understand this is raising the bar again or trying too

Ok Steve I won’t talk you out of it
I’ll show where you can improve

The greatest part is education !!!!

& without that it will be confusing for customers but give them credit I don’t think it’s outside of the reals of what can occur but education is paramount & only way to educate is to show imo


On inventory’s
That’s also education again

you already have a nightmare for customers

So wouldn’t it be better to cull some more like you have previously
& You just saw the reaction from the 338 guys who got extremely confused with the 210&220 hht & some even pi$$ed I’d say from reactions I read or I perceived it that way

So now you have two 338 pills that in all terms are going to be the same ( I doubt it in my world anyway )

So why wouldn’t it be better to have one weight & 2 pills with 2 velocity window ratings let’s say a 215 for argument or couldn’t care less if a 210 or 220
( think why we tinkered @ Alex’s as we saw something that would potentially occur but caliber size puts bandaids on things & what we did showed how a little tweak causes huge differences & that one tweak concentrated the wound of a great workable pill but I’m sure it will help the top end but I can’t push fast enough to Show what’s going to occur yes I’m confident I can but now the new tip ( which I like ) I’m not so sure

So now your going to have the same number on the shelf so no difference to you
But yes totally can become a nightmare if someone gets the wrong pill
Tip colours fix that potential blunder

Next part of this

You mentioned the 101 & I thankyou for that as there’s my point as you are already doing it

Structurely it didn’t fail it failed as it failed to adhere to the triangle & the shapecharge it produces @ those impacts is all wrong
The next prototype didn’t work either
& then the 3rd pill in that was the best of those 3 if someone run that pill in a rum or wm but it still wasn’t adequate to give as reliable results as the 120 up class was superior but then even run that 120LH @4 k it’s wrong as it’s to delayed in the opening & but only on the smaller deer as if you use that pill on a larger deer it’s better balanced for that critter
That’s where the hp fail to adhere to consistency as depending on angle or material impacted you get a varied response & why the tip is superior as it acts the same or in a way closer or smaller transition zone yes I don’t think people still grasp how good that tip is yet I’ll also recommend a hh or sh for some as they don’t need the tip as that for them is not warranted

Yes it’s educating people & it was put out prior to people using that 101 in a rum or like & yet still was used in a rum that was told numerous times yes this pill will kill no doubt but keep shooting & it will fail someone eventually & hey presto it didn’t take long & a lost deer which was great imo as much as I hate to see a lost critter or long run
It reinforced the need to watch the triangle /shapecharge of a particular pill & hammers arnt this magical pill as we still have limits but man alive the hammerheads have honed in on this & education has been given to us all yes the warts & all

Yes it’s like a frangible great results till it doesn’t

But by simple words people now know what it’s designed for & use it in a rum & no individual has any comeback if they do


Yep Geoff @ woodleigh weathered a lot of that type of thing in the early days & he was a extremely small company with way less market that & no doubt would today & he even told me the same type of thing when I quizzed him years ago on the hydro on the 235 hydro vrs the 300 in 375
I had no comeback which as you know doesn’t happen very often so I accepted & moved on but still rate & use those hydro as the best solid on the market today ( reminds me about time to get back to the Jess bullet testing so yep more of the oh no what’s he doing now 🤣🤣 ) as it gives consistency but still need to match it to one’s quarry of choice or watch it fail also not structural but application & why ceb has gained ground as they were great @ educating & today their solids are probably the best from a education point & in certain areas probably the best

I guess the next part to point out is the high velocity impact & broad again but more weight to this than the not side

Yes the hht do have a velocity upper threshold that is not as high as the hh line

This comes down to one thing & that’s the balance of that particular pill & the shapecharge it creates @ those impacts

& let’s look @ what happens
On my testing with the AHT yes the AHT I particularly went to my favoured knuckle shot as we know how that will kill a pill in its tracks yet it preformed extremely well@around 3k
Now move that to the 125hht & same result yet the 118hht & now you have a pill that is basically left with a hydro only kill & yes that’s with the proper hp depth’s not the prototypes we shot in the asiatic or like as fast as I could shoot them yes I deliberately popped primers on these but once you ( I assume ) put that pill in a 26 nosler or like & watch the same occur on that one shot yet you drop that down to 2800 impact & watch the pill preform flawless it’s all in the shapecharge & high velocity the petals go to wide & get absorbed in the shoulder & bone with nothing getting through into the chest cavity apart from the shank
Yes most won’t see till it happens then it’s 🤔or worse the 101 all over again yes a lost critter this most likely will be from a run & big critter that’s not recoverable as it will kill but like that 101 lost deer I’m not going in croc infested waters & why I never gained the information I wanted previously on some 375 pills ( some hammers most not ) so I won’t use the 118 as better pills for the application intended & once again it’s not a heavier or lighter option as there are 2 that fit ea side of the 118 ( 112&125 ) that give us the better options as they have the shapecharge that compliments the application but I can’t push them fast enough to find out if they do have a upper limit but 30 cal yes I can see a few of those but the 154 I’ve not found that upper limit so you can have a hht with no upper limit but they are only part of the journey


Yes the greatest pill we can have is the one that gives us the shortest impact to tip over the various angles we encounter in the field not the frangible like WOW factor when it goes right or just a dead critter

But we can learn from those frangible pills & it’s why greatly today it’s known stay off bone & don’t impact to high of velocity

And this was eventually proven to be the best advice by education nothing more nothing less

So it will come I’m sure as I’m starting to see the world turning in a few different ways that I’ll leave everyone with this


When the majority work out what the minority is on about the minority have already moved on

First one needs to clear ones head But K.I.S.S is a must & education will show the way that I’m sure I will see this come around in my lifetime if not with hammers someone will

I think that covered what was put up so far as I’m sure there’s more to come if anyone wishes

Sorry no pics or videos to back up my post but it’s in this forum somewhere & by showing we learn but down the rabbit hole one can go & for now I’ll go back to mine 🤪🤣


Cheers
 
The impression I was getting up top was that fairly distinct differences existed between lines - HHT struggled more at higher (undefined) impact velocities relative to HH. But Steve’s comments state the HHTs perform “exceptionally well at high velocity impacts.”

Maybe what you’re really talking about are extreme impact velocities - say over 3500 or 4000. If that’s the case, I’m more skeptical of labeling bullets with effectiveness ranges. Differences in that stratosphere seem more academic. Useful for learning about potential design tweaks, but unclear how useful to most shooters.
 
BigGame said:
The impression I was getting up top was that fairly distinct differences existed between lines - HHT struggled more at higher (undefined) impact velocities relative to HH. But Steve’s comments state the HHTs perform “exceptionally well at high velocity impacts.”

Maybe what you’re really talking about are extreme impact velocities - say over 3500 or 4000. If that’s the case, I’m more skeptical of labeling bullets with effectiveness ranges. Differences in that stratosphere seem more academic. Useful for learning about potential design tweaks, but unclear how useful to most shooters.
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Gday big game please define “exceptionally well “or @ a minimum your understanding of this & I would like Steve to comment on that also

I will hold back information until this part is defined somewhat as then I’ll know what I’m dealing with

Please don’t take that statement above as being bitchy or sarcastic as it’s 100% NOT !! . all I want to know is do I need to show , yes educate some more before one understands where one can get even better results than they have today

Once again not having a go just trying to understand the level I need to start over fresh & what better way than understanding where people see it from their eyes & the standard they accept

The last part of 3500 plus impacts is fascinating to here that portrayed id suggest we band together as hunters not draw a line in the sand as that will splinter us as a group & that will not be good for future generations to come
Jm2cw

Cheers
 
The most critical and difficult impact velocity that must be dealt with is low. Down to 1800 fps. If we can't get reliable performance down to this level then the bullet doesn't get marketed. Because even if we educated and advertised that a bullet shouldn't be used on game below 2300 fps (just picked a number), it will get used that way. Then we will be in the position telling hunters that they shouldn't have used that bullet. We can avoid this situation by never marketing that bullet. Our current bullet design and marketing is the right way. Cover the low velocity and continue to strive for the widest range of effective impact velocity. As Fordy would say "Tick as many boxes as possible". Ticking less boxes with boutique bullets for narrow velocity windows and educating hunters on which one to use is not a good idea. It might be a good mental exercise and fun to talk about.

I still have yet to see any of our bullets that retain 60-70% not be able to handle high velocity impacts on animals and kill very effectivity. I am sure there is a speed limit but I don't know what it is.
 
The biggest task we have as hunters is to understand bullet terminal performance velocity bracket and stay within whatever it may be to insure whatever distance we choose to shoot meets that criteria for the animal we are shooting. We cannot nor must not "believe" any bullet will perform outside this bracket. It is a responsibility not a choice.
 
When I used the term energy in the past, it was associated with a heavy bullet in a 45-70. They ran up to 100 yards which means they were drug for a hundred yards.🥵

Now when I use the term, speed kills, It's associated with a balanced hammer which normally results in a bang flop.💥🚀🔨☠️

Sorry to derail.

Joe
 
Obviously energy is needed to make a bullet deform. Energy is not a good way to measure bullet capability. I think it is a good way to compare cartridges. After that I find energy to be an arbitrary figure. What the bullet does with the impact velocity and "energy" is what matters.
 
^x2
Energy is simply a mathematical number that provides a possible indicator if a bullet will deform/perform as designed at impact velocity. If a bullet does nothing with the calculated energy and velocity it's useless.

A FMJ can have a ton of velocity and energy = so what.
 
I guess to define my understanding of acceptable performance. I’m looking for the coke can/shape charge/bubble that hammers in general and hht in particular have become known for, I want that section of the wound path to be at it’s best in my normal impact ranges (current hunting grounds that’s going to be in the 75-300 yard range) perhaps biased towards the lower velocity in case of a somewhat longer shot and because I am shooting smaller cartridges (.308 based family), if that means I can’t expect better than a hydro solid type wound when I get that unexpected 20yard shoulder knuckle shot then I’ll settle for that any day of the week, close shots like that can in my experience be placed with much higher confidence and a 50-100 yard dash is a lot easier to watch the animal potentially even watch it go down than if that same scenario happens on the other end of the window at 300+ yards. That’s a bit more of where I am coming from and situation I’m working with.
I am interested in more information (better education)regarding what velocity windows and shot angles see the best coke can wound channel for each pill. I’m one of those that doesn’t get to kill many animals so pretty much take farleg gl knee deep and Steve at their word regarding what works and what doesn’t.
 
Steve Davis said:
Obviously energy is needed to make a bullet deform. Energy is not a good way to measure bullet capability. I think it is a good way to compare cartridges. After that I find energy to be an arbitrary figure. What the bullet does with the impact velocity and "energy" is what matters.
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I'm no pysimachist, but isn't velocity what provides the energy? :LOL:
 
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