308 WIN 154 HHT Range Report

DiscoSteve said:
So I tried to duplicate @BFD's 154 HHT load. I got some Lapua brass and tried some Fed 215M primers. The load was the 154 HHT over 43.9 gr of TAC, 2.800" COAL with 1/3T Lee FCD. I tried 2x fired Nosler brass and new Lapua brass. Both Averaged 2715 fps out of a 1-10 twist 16" barrel. 2 of the 3 Lapua cases had an ejector mark, but an easy bolt. No pressure on the Nosler brass and it shot sub MOA! I can count the number of MOA groups this rifle has shot on one hand, so if this load pans out, I'll be pretty happy!

I guess my next venture will be to try some CCI200 primers in the Lapua brass, and repeat the group in the nosler brass.

Any ideas why new Lapua brass would have ejector marks and not the 2x fired Nosler? I'd assume virgin brass would fireform more in the shoulder and not leave as much pressure signs on the case head, but I could be mistaken about that.
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You are coming in only 70-100fps under my 22" barrel, with same components, with your 16" so I am gonna say you are full tilt on these loads! The pressure signs show it too. I'd drop to 43gr TAC, keep the 215M, reload the fired Lapua to see how it do. Really, 2650fps would be great considering a 16" barrel.

The Nosler was 2X fired and it totally makes sense that it had more case capacity to handle the stouter loads. Compare the fired Lapua for science sake. LOL.

Nice keeping things consistent buddy!
 
I shot some more today:
154 HHT over 43 gr of TAC, 1x Lapua brass, 215M, 2.800 COAL shot just over MOA with an avg of 2644 fps. No pressure. I think maybe I'll try 43.3 to see if the groups tighten up, but that's asking a lot from this rifle!

And just for funsies, I shot one round with 43 gr of IMR 4166 which produced 2551 fps, and another round with 43 gr of IMR 4895 which got 2590 fps. Both of those shots were touching, go figure!

I've noticed that the lapua brass has a thicker neck. The neck OD of a loaded Lapua round is .338 vs .333 for my nosler brass. But both start .003 smaller when unloaded. Sooooo...... Does .003 of neck tension provide a different amount of bullet grip depending on the brass thickness? Anyone remember the hoop stress formula?
 
DiscoSteve said:
I shot some more today:
154 HHT over 43 gr of TAC, 1x Lapua brass, 215M, 2.800 COAL shot just over MOA with an avg of 2644 fps. No pressure. I think maybe I'll try 43.3 to see if the groups tighten up, but that's asking a lot from this rifle!
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Yes
DiscoSteve said:
And just for funsies, I shot one round with 43 gr of IMR 4166 which produced 2551 fps, and another round with 43 gr of IMR 4895 which got 2590 fps. Both of those shots were touching, go figure!
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You found your velocity sweet spot for the barrel! Bout 2600fps
DiscoSteve said:
I've noticed that the lapua brass has a thicker neck. The neck OD of a loaded Lapua round is .338 vs .333 for my nosler brass. But both start .003 smaller when unloaded. Sooooo...... Does .003 of neck tension provide a different amount of bullet grip depending on the brass thickness? Anyone remember the hoop stress formula?
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My Lapua is .335 and loaded .338. That's .003 interference. The only thing to worry about after this is chamber neck clearance. Measure a fired case neck and report. Optimal is .004-.005. or .342ish Match chambers can go .001-.002. Like, the "Turned necks". Just remember there is .001 spring back on the brass, so your neck clearance measurement + .001.
 
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Since y’all are my 308/TAC buddies, how was I able to push the 151 Absolutes to 50 gn of TAC, and almost 3200 fps in a 22.4” barrel? Is my bother’s rifle just abnormal? Granted, that was a +/-45° day, but I’m still puzzled by it…
 
LightTheTower said:
Since y’all are my 308/TAC buddies, how was I able to push the 151 Absolutes to 50 gn of TAC, and almost 3200 fps in a 22.4” barrel? Is my bother’s rifle just abnormal? Granted, that was a +/-45° day, but I’m still puzzled by it…
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Send me some. I will try to replicate.
 
@LightTheTower - I pushed the 151 AH to 2925 fps with 49 gr of TAC. But that was pretty hot. 47 gr gave 2821, and 48 gr was 2888. From a 16" bbl. So if you assume 25 fps/inch of barrel, 6" more barrel would be ~150 fps. That's getting close to 3100 fps. I think my rifle pressures out early.

@BFD - Thanks for the input. Maybe I'll try a little less TAC to see if 2600 fps is the "sweet spot." Then I'll have to decide between the 154HHT at 2600 and the 151AH at 2800! I could send you some 151 AH's if you wanted to FAFO.

I measured some of my brass. Here's what I got:

Lapua:
- sized .335
- loaded .338
- fired .344

Nosler:
- sized .330
- loaded .333
- fired .343

These are an average, they varied about +- .001
 
DiscoSteve said:
@LightTheTower - I pushed the 151 AH to 2925 fps with 49 gr of TAC. But that was pretty hot. 47 gr gave 2821, and 48 gr was 2888. From a 16" bbl. So if you assume 25 fps/inch of barrel, 6" more barrel would be ~150 fps. That's getting close to 3100 fps. I think my rifle pressures out early.

@BFD - Thanks for the input. Maybe I'll try a little less TAC to see if 2600 fps is the "sweet spot." Then I'll have to decide between the 154HHT at 2600 and the 151AH at 2800! I could send you some 151 AH's if you wanted to FAFO.
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Don't threaten with with a FAFO good time! 🤪
DiscoSteve said:
I measured some of my brass. Here's what I got:

Lapua:
- sized .335
- loaded .338
- fired .344
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My Hammer shooter is exactly these numbers. The other 308 is .342" You are in the goldie locks zone!
DiscoSteve said:
Nosler:
- sized .330
- loaded .333
- fired .343

These are an average, they varied about +- .001
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BFD said:
I think with the performance @Farleg revealed of these HHTs, I will be good running with my IMR3031 .15MOA recipe at 2750fps. The fallback powder will be the 44gr TAC at 2800fps. at .3 MOA. :)
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Gday bfd & you other 308 guys with loads @ muzzle vehicles of around that 2600/2800 you are going to be in a part of no real need to try & push any faster 😱 & I’ll explain as for the majority of ranges most people take critters @ until you get your load to 2900 more like 3k your not going to gain anything on preformance with the exception of your bottom end impact ( lowest velocity bracket also maximum range but I’m leaving that out for now & broadly speaking)

So if your impact is going to be in the range of 2000 more so 2100 🤔 to that 2500/2600 maybe 2700 ✅which I would assume the majority of 08 uses will be in
Your good to go & nail a critter
That’s the hht
Go to the hh or ah & your back to the old velocity brackets & they just don’t fit with the hht line as lower impact kills are like chalk & cheese

For clarification for the new members The bottom bracket still kills ok just not as good as the one above & so on just like all brands , we have various velocity windows that the pill works well within before results get erratic or just plain fail
Then within these windows you have velocity brackets & that’s when some of us get anal on these things
Others don’t care & a dead critter is all that matters so ea to their own system

Cheers
 
Thanks @Farleg for your input and expertise on the terminal ballistics of the HHTs. I will hopefully get an accurate load around 2600 muzzle velocity with the 154 HHT. That translates to ~2100 at 300 yds and ~1800 fps at 450 yds. I've never shot at an animal past that, so if I think I need more reach, then I'll step up to my 30-06 with a normal (22") barrel.

However, I know you like "ticking" on things, so how about a 135ish 308 pill with the HHT hp/tip and the absolute ogive?!?! 20 less grains of bullet weight to push down the tube AND the AH profile sounds like a winning combo to me!! ;)
 
DiscoSteve said:
Thanks @Farleg for your input and expertise on the terminal ballistics of the HHTs. I will hopefully get an accurate load around 2600 muzzle velocity with the 154 HHT. That translates to ~2100 at 300 yds and ~1800 fps at 450 yds. I've never shot at an animal past that, so if I think I need more reach, then I'll step up to my 30-06 with a normal (22") barrel.

However, I know you like "ticking" on things, so how about a 135ish 308 pill with the HHT hp/tip and the absolute ogive?!?! 20 less grains of bullet weight to push down the tube AND the AH profile sounds like a winning combo to me!! ;)
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Me too!
 
DiscoSteve said:
Thanks @Farleg for your input and expertise on the terminal ballistics of the HHTs. I will hopefully get an accurate load around 2600 muzzle velocity with the 154 HHT. That translates to ~2100 at 300 yds and ~1800 fps at 450 yds. I've never shot at an animal past that, so if I think I need more reach, then I'll step up to my 30-06 with a normal (22") barrel.
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Gday disco you’ve hit this above up perfectly

DiscoSteve said:
However, I know you like "ticking" on things, so how about a 135ish 308 pill with the HHT hp/tip and the absolute ogive?!?! 20 less grains of bullet weight to push down the tube AND the AH profile sounds like a winning combo to me!! ;)
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Now now disco that’s just cruel 😱I was going tinkering & grinding pills , well until now & it’s all your fault lol

Let’s just break that down a touch
The hht opens incredibly easy & so consistent over a huge range of resistances
The ah line opens quickly the higher the velocity the quicker it opens but still isn’t as good @ the lower impacts as the hht but it’s the speed demon some of us like

So potentially a 135 ah/hht hybrid would have around 400 fps advantage over the 154hht & a very interesting combo that has merit 🤷‍♂️


Man wish I could do that in my rum as I’d be @4600 man alive 😈😈
ok I’m back on track just salivating for a moment lol

The ah line has a lower bc so degrades quicker but potentially will give us the more consistent opening across multiple impacts so yes
The 154@2600 gets you to your 300 with still great results & let’s say the hybrid only looses 100 or could miraculously hold its own so a
135 hybrid @3000 your impact would be 2400 to 2500

If we we’re using the old brackets I’d say go for it but the advantage is basically non exsistant with the hht line & why I just couldn’t wrap my head around how good the hht line was initially ( me trying to find the weaknesses aside ) as you should not see this form of impact difference playing out like it did but it is what it is

Now to be fair that is only an illustration @300 & we should NEVER!!!! Do one calculation just like we should never take we will be 100% spot on with placement or the angle of the critter we are in pursuit of

It’s the whole kit & caboodle that will tell us the truth so for now I’m with the 154 is going to take some beating for you 308 guys then say 135 ish pill mmm give me that & I’ve got a feeling I’ll basically cut a deer in half & that I am not joking as I think it’s a possibility but 308 guys I do think it would be pretty well getting to the bottom end of a useful weight as the heavier pills will just trump the lightweight with ease across the velocity window


But only one way to find out right 🤣🤣🤣
Or should I go wink wink nudge nudge steve 😈😈& for record if it comes out im saying a 124 will be to light a 135 will be the bottom end of a good pill weight

But disco I’ll let you worry Steve on that as I’m sure he gets sick of my requests 🤔& im just waiting till he sees why I’m pushing what I do
Yep stay tuned on that lol

Ok I’m off to do some tinkering/ grinding & no doubt I’ll get a call from @Joe to try & help his disease of this pop a primer & back off a grain lol but really no need for a call as joe bundy fixes everything 🤣

Cheers
 
Thanks @Farleg, I think I only needed an interpreter for about 15% of that post ;) ! But seriously, if I can find an accurate load around 2600-2650 fps muzzle velocity, then I'll provide some "low velocity" testing results with the 154 HHT this fall on deer/pigs/hopefully cow elk. Thanks again for your insight on terminal ballistics.

I shot some more today:
154 HHT 43.3 gr TAC 215M new Lapua brass, 2.800" 1/3T
- 2659, 2654, 2657 (ES 5! with TAC!) - about MOA, no pressure

I shot 2 shots at my 300 yd gong, and they were about 3" apart, so it seems to hold ~MOA out to at least that far. 3 MOA of dial seemed to be accurate in terms of drop.

Same combo as above except with CCI200 primers
- 2682, 2645, 2702 - 3MOA

Standard primers had faster muzzle velocity, and much worse accuracy.

44 gr IMR 4166, CCI200, 2.800, 1/3T, 2x Nosler brass
- 2677, 2698, 2657 - terrible accuracy

Maybe I should drop back to ~42.5 gr of TAC to see if there's an accuracy node around 2600 fps? I had 2 bullets with different powders go into the same hole around that muzzle velocity. Maybe more crimp? I've triple checked my Lee FCD, and I can't see any visible change in my crimped and uncrimped brass with 1/3T even with loupes. I've also checked my case trim length to make sure it's consistent.
 

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Gday disco
15% I must be slipping or your just getting use to me lol

I so look forward to your fall as the more data the better & same with everyone hope your upcoming hunts go well 👍

Now I hope this doesn’t happen to anyone but if someone has a bad shot please please take note of the wounds & pictures along with the ever important impact to tip as this is where this hht line shows some extremely good results on the gut shots I’ve witnessed but numbers are small so the more that come in the better understanding we have but it’s not one I wish on anyone & why I test for bad outcomes as then we have a idea of the outcome to hopefully expect

Disco if @all possible on the pigs I’d say increase those angles & preferably quarter away but exit behind farleg not on it or in front as that shot the critters travel some distance that will help to give us a idea of the preformance from the 154 & track that pill on wound characteristics along its path

I’m going to do some more angles once I get the hht & be great to compare notes

But be warned if I get you on the phone you’ll need 2 interpreters 🤣

Cheers
 
Update -

308 154 HHT with 43.5 gr of 4166, CCI 200, 2.800, 2x Nosler brass, 1/2T
- 2584
- 2633
- err

No pressure signs, just under MOA. Avg 2608 fps.

And TAC:
154 HHT, 42.5 gr TAC, 215M, new Lapua brass, 2.800, 1/2T
- 2633
- 2643
- 2646
Avg 2640 fps, no pressure, just greater than MOA.

154 HHT, 43 gr TAC, 215M, new Lapua brass, 2.800, 1/2T
- 2661
- 2651
- 2662
Avg 2658 fps, no pressure, also just greater than MOA.

The 4166 has greater case fill than TAC. It's also advertised as "insensitive to temperature change." Any reason to choose one over the other?
 
And I also did a preliminary ladder with my 30-06:

for @gltaylor:

Tikka T3, 154 HHT, Ramshot Big Game, 215M, 3.257" (case mouth at the 1st PDR valley), 1/2T
52 gr - 2736
53 gr - 2811
54 gr - 2830
55 gr - 2886

No pressure signs, 1.2" group with 4 different powder charges.

Same as above except Staball 6.5
59 gr - err
60 gr - err
61 gr - 3064 fps

No pressure at all. 1" group with 3 powder charges. There's room to go up with both these powders. I hate pulling bullets, so I started conservatively.

Both these ladders shot as well as my 308 with me trying to shoot for groups!

Anyone want to buy a short barrel 308 with a foldable stock? Looks super cool ;). Guaranteed to shoot sub 2 MOA and reach pressure early!
 
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