HHT Terminal Performance

[joevh]

@jrebel and others:
What are your thoughts on the amount of bloodshot? Is it just on the surface, between layers, or do you think the meat is pretty bloodshot as well? I'm curious if these HHT's are almost "too effective", i.e., creating a lot of bloodshot, while avoiding bloodshot is one of the reasons for the creation of Hammer bullets. My son has taken an antelope buck at 250yds with my 6.5 CM and 97 AH @3400 mv, as well as a rag horn bull elk with his 7'08 using 120 HH @3100 mv. Both have performed spectacularly, with the antelope doing the "Hammer drop" and the elk doing the "Hammer tip-over". Meat damage seems minimal. I have the 154HHT's loaded in my 300 WSM but have not as yet been able to shoot anything with it. I recognize the given benefits of the HHT's, but some of these pictures have me wondering how butcher friendly they are going to be.

 

[jrebel]

@jrebel and others:
What are your thoughts on the amount of bloodshot? Is it just on the surface, between layers, or do you think the meat is pretty bloodshot as well? I'm curious if these HHT's are almost "too effective", i.e., creating a lot of bloodshot, while avoiding bloodshot is one of the reasons for the creation of Hammer bullets. My son has taken an antelope buck at 250yds with my 6.5 CM and 97 AH @3400 mv, as well as a rag horn bull elk with his 7'08 using 120 HH @3100 mv. Both have performed spectacularly, with the antelope doing the "Hammer drop" and the elk doing the "Hammer tip-over". Meat damage seems minimal. I have the 154HHT's loaded in my 300 WSM but have not as yet been able to shoot anything with it. I recognize the given benefits of the HHT's, but some of these pictures have me wondering how butcher friendly they are going to be.

I’ll be butchering my buck on Sunday and will have more information on the type and amount of damage. This buck appears to have a ton of shock damage, but it also appears to be between the muscle groups. I opened the armpits and cleaned it out early, which is super important. When I cut the muscles open, I will try and take pictures to show if there is…or isn’t ….bloodshot meat.

I used the same rifle and bullet on a bear this year and had no meat loss. The wound Chanel was great and what I had experienced with non tipped hammers in previous years.

I suspect this deer is the exception and not the norm. I (my family) have killed quite a few animals with hammer bullets and this is the first to have this much damage. My son used my 338 lapua on a bear at 350+/- yards and it dropped it dead in its tracks. Very minimal meat loss.

On a side note….prior to switching to hammers, I primarily shot nosler accubonds and partitions. Most animals died quick and meat loss was minimal. One buck in Idaho was an exception to that rule….the offside shoulder was a total loss. Literally dynamited the off side shoulder….like meat, bone and hide were gone. Looked like I shot it with a howitzer!!!!! Point being, sometimes stuff happens for whatever / unknown reasons.

 

[cubdriver84d]

@jrebel and others:
What are your thoughts on the amount of bloodshot? Is it just on the surface, between layers, or do you think the meat is pretty bloodshot as well? I'm curious if these HHT's are almost "too effective", i.e., creating a lot of bloodshot, while avoiding bloodshot is one of the reasons for the creation of Hammer bullets. My son has taken an antelope buck at 250yds with my 6.5 CM and 97 AH @3400 mv, as well as a rag horn bull elk with his 7'08 using 120 HH @3100 mv. Both have performed spectacularly, with the antelope doing the "Hammer drop" and the elk doing the "Hammer tip-over". Meat damage seems minimal. I have the 154HHT's loaded in my 300 WSM but have not as yet been able to shoot anything with it. I recognize the given benefits of the HHT's, but some of these pictures have me wondering how butcher friendly they are going to be.

Meat hasn’t been very bloodshot in my experience. The blood on the entrance side of my deer and bear was just on the surface. Both animals I actually second guessed my recollection of the orientation of the animals when I shot because of the hemorrhaging on the entrance side. I usually expect to see more of that on the exit but exits have been really clean with the hht for me so far.

 

[Farleg]

@Farleg, I hope one day I am able to buy you a beer.
Best regards,
Alan

Gday Alan
I would be honoured & same in return
Noted on bucket list
Cheers

 

[joe16]

This place is awesome!

 

[HARPERC]

Beer can pics deleted to appease folks political views.

Took me overnight to think about this.
1) You should not have had to do that.

Being that this is a public forum and politics is public….

I don’t expect an answer and in an effort to keep this from becoming a back and forth argument I have said all I’m going to say about this here.

This place (and America) won’t be ruined so long as folks keep a thick skin.

Back to dead animals now.

2) Really its not a "public" forum. We've rejected request to join from Eastern Europe, China, and for assorted other to protect the membership. Increased expense changing to a format with no more underwear ads, and pictures deemed inappropriate for this site. Plus others that would likely increase division among hunters and shooters. Just like other sites that wouldn't find the deer carcass unacceptable.

3) "Here" the best place for such discussions could be in Humor, Politics, or Private Message. With emphasis on not somebody else's post. I'm hopeful this ends here. Please continue on another thread or privately with me should you feel the need.

4) I've got a pretty thick skin, but time and place matter.

5) Back to HHT Terminal performance.

 

[Farleg]

@jrebel and others:
What are your thoughts on the amount of bloodshot? Is it just on the surface, between layers, or do you think the meat is pretty bloodshot as well? I'm curious if these HHT's are almost "too effective", i.e., creating a lot of bloodshot, while avoiding bloodshot is one of the reasons for the creation of Hammer bullets. My son has taken an antelope buck at 250yds with my 6.5 CM and 97 AH @3400 mv, as well as a rag horn bull elk with his 7'08 using 120 HH @3100 mv. Both have performed spectacularly, with the antelope doing the "Hammer drop" and the elk doing the "Hammer tip-over". Meat damage seems minimal. I have the 154HHT's loaded in my 300 WSM but have not as yet been able to shoot anything with it. I recognize the given benefits of the HHT's, but some of these pictures have me wondering how butcher friendly they are going to be.

Gday joevh
My 2 cents on that blood is a lot of that with hammers is from runs mostly & due to the pressure of a different form ( not correct terminology) that you get the blood splash on the layers of the muscle not in it

Cheers

 

[hand skills]

Gday joevh
My 2 cents on that blood is a lot of that with hammers is from runs mostly & due to the pressure of a different form ( not correct terminology) that you get the blood splash on the layers of the muscle not in it

Cheers

I agree, I think blood vessels local to the wound channel pop due to pressure. Then the blood clots and coagulates. It can look pretty gnarly, but with monos, often the 'jelly' just scrapes off;

Not an HHT, but here is a shoulder that took an Absolute Hammer impact over 3000fps.



Fortunately bullet missed the scapula, so I was able to remove the shoulder blade in one piece. Scraped the goo off and the meat came out ok.



For someone accustomed to shooting lead core bullets, it might be hard to believe that is the same piece of meat!

 

[Farleg]

Gday @jrebel
I didn’t quote any of your next series of posts on those breakdowns as man that is some fine work breaking down like that
Very appreciative

It wasn’t my intention to say you were wrong on the angle & shouldn’t have singled you out & hope this help’s explains a bit more

I see one thing & on your description I see a opportunity to TRY & explain in general to others of why we need to be carful not assuming what we see is going to be the actual
I’m sorry to come across as you don’t know what your talking about as look @ the way you’ve set out even the original & the pics speak for itself

I do have a very bad habit of not proof reading & this reminds me I should try to remember what bcsportsman ( rip to a great member of the old forum he was truly a great person I miss ) guided me many times on being careful on how I relay things as I can be abrasive & most of the time it’s not what I’m trying to do I’m just trying to help & by others that read our posts & not comment it may help them assess a bit more

I personally like references & beer cans are pretty good imo as pretty universal everywhere for people to gauge things off & I think Carl covered that & enough said on that from me but please don’t step back from the way you have presented your data as it’s very good & those pics are priceless for me so me personally I’d love to see them added again but solely your call

Moving on

I think you’re comparison to the one that went of like a howitzer on throwing the shoulder away from either accubond or partition is actually a good reference of yes things do happen but also you see patterns on these occurring now & then
So just take note ( writing in diary’s or notes is good for me ) of the initial impact & also on its journey what it hits what angle & the resistance involved in that & taking notes over the years you see a pattern starts to show
A great example watch scapula shots
Same old results time after time & then you get a blow up or should say a more extensive wound channel & depending on the type of pill this can go from a 1/2 in to 6 in difference
The reason is on that scapular you have hit the spine of it ( I need to show the spine of the scapula to stop potential confusion ) then add angles to that scapula spine & difference occurs again

So for those that are shooting the hht & are running the impacts @ pretty high impact just be mindful you are going to get more like this than the say the hh line ah lines also
This can help if you step back & can run ( twist apply) a heavier version you will find it settles these wounds down a touch

I hope that answers where I’m from & what i endeavour to show in my posts along with the learning I get here

I’d like to reiterate that this place has been incredible @ moving the bar & just spoke to Steve today & got on what’s been found out along the journey & this place I’ve got no hesitation in saying WE have all had a part in that as watch others duck & weave & just happy a pill kills a critter & yet write up glowing reports even when the obvious occurs

We have been able to cut through that crap & push the hammer boys & one I’m so happy to see the pill designs coming out now
Are they perfect no way
Are they exactly the same with ea different pill no way
Variations will exsist & as long as we keep showing these results we will find where a particular pill may have a bad trait & to me if we find it & not cover it up or except , we will potentially save the next person getting similar results & can shift to a way better combo & that we should be proud of
Yes it’s the journey here I love & you’ve got the hammer boys willing to adjust which is
Totally easier now than the brick wall some companies give

So ask one self why !!!
because we show factual evidence & back it up
Yes we have the runs on the board & no brick wall although I’m sure a few of us got sore heads from banging it up against it in the early days lol

Enough of my rambling let’s get back into these hht

Oh no proof read lol this is straight from my heart
Cheers

 

[jrebel]

@Farleg

Thanks for the reply and I 100% agree with your assessments and want to say I love reading your posts. I think your experience and perspective on reloading and terminal performance in second to none. At no time did you offend me....matter of fact....after reading your original post, I thought to myself....you dummy, the buck is hanging in the meat locker. I went back out and did a closer assessment of the entry and exit wounds in the rib cage, to realize it really wasn't that hard of a quartering shot. Reality was the buck had to have had his offside leg back, causing the exit to look more forward that in really was. Again, had you not offered your perspective....I would have settled for my reality of the bullet or bullet debris causing an exit wound way further than it should have been.

I also want to say, I LOVE HAMMERS!!!! We have killed 3-4 deer and 3 bear (if my memory serves me), and I have yet to not recover an animal. Performance has been great and I have yet to not have and entry and exit wound. Every hammer I have completed a load with shoots amazing. The reality of this specific hunt....a 300 wsm with a 168 grain bullet going 3100 fps may be a little much for a whitetail at close range... . With that said, it is dead, and it taste great!!! Next time I'm sitting in a blind where my furthest shot is 100ish yards, I will take the 7-08 with 101 grain HH.

 

[Farleg]

I agree, I think blood vessels local to the wound channel pop due to pressure. Then the blood clots and coagulates. It can look pretty gnarly, but with monos, often the 'jelly' just scrapes off;

Not an HHT, but here is a shoulder that took an Absolute Hammer impact over 3000fps.

View attachment 4095

Fortunately bullet missed the scapula, so I was able to remove the shoulder blade in one piece. Scraped the goo off and the meat came out ok.

View attachment 4096

For someone accustomed to shooting lead core bullets, it might be hard to believe that is the same piece of meat!

Gday handskills
Great description & pics
Cheers

 

[Farleg]

Gday jrebel

The way I look @ a animal before I shoot is look @ the leg position of them ( if one can see ) & take notice of the far leg as it gives us a great indication of angles & one I always emphasise to the young ones I take out & even when no animals are shot I’m always asking now where would you place the shot on that particular animal @ that angle becomes a great learning curve of sitting back & giving us great mussel memory & hard wired our thoughts creating a better outcome on the whole

For me I’ve always tried to break the far leg & aim dead centre of it now you guys that like the meat saver shot or real good & do the riceman shot ( between the ribs ) I’d suspect it would be basically the same but run your x hairs up the side of that far leg

Even driving around & see any animal from horses in yards do the same thing & before to long you don’t even think about looking for that far leg it becomes automatic
By far the easiest to teach this to is kids
& nothing better than that for me on seeing the smiles when it all comes together

Hope that helps someone & study those shots in the field & works on all except the hard quarters but the legs usually give those away
Others may have other methods which I’d love to hear as if you get a system that’s a easier kiss im all in
Cheers

 

[BryanF]

Forgot to take pics but shot a doe at 330yd with a 125gr HHT out of a 6.5prc at 3,150fps suppressed. Caliber size entrance and larger than golf ball sized exit through the chest cavity. Heart etc was jello. Doe fell when hit and thrashed for about 5yds and expired.

 

[Farleg]

Forgot to take pics but shot a doe at 330yd with a 125gr HHT out of a 6.5prc at 3,150fps suppressed. Caliber size entrance and larger than golf ball sized exit through the chest cavity. Heart etc was jello. Doe fell when hit and thrashed for about 5yds and expired.

Gday bryanf
Congrats & good eating I bet
all cool on pics that’s in a nice sweet zone for velocity impact
Cheers

 

[Snailz]

Gday all

I shot a large doe in Missouri with the 154HHT. Here are some details.

308win/154HHT
26”, 12 twist, 3015MV
111 yards, impact velocity 2800fps
The shot was slightly quartering to. Entry in the meat of the left front shoulder, just under scapula. Exit was mid lung/ribs. The doe bounced into tall weeds almost immediately after the shot.
View attachment 3966
Shot location was white X, with arrow in direction of travel.

I waited till dark to track. There was blood immediately at the shot on the edge of the field. There was a very good blood trail in the tall weeds leading to this small tree she plowed into. Roughly 30 yards from the shot location.
View attachment 3967
The doe must have hit this tree mid jump as the blood was chest high. There was a lot of hair and blood on the ground. She made it about another 15 yards, so roughly a 45 yard run.
View attachment 3968
Entry
View attachment 3969
Exit
View attachment 3970
Exit hole well over caliber size. There was a lot of blood coming out of the exit hole. There was also lots of blood coming from her nose and mouth.
View attachment 3971
EntryView attachment 3972
Entry on inside. You can see how the meat of the shoulder plugs the hole when the muscles move. The 154HHT clearly started opening in the shoulder.
View attachment 3973
Exit hole was significant through the ribs.
View attachment 3974
I’ll follow up in the next post with lung pics. My phone is acting up and I don’t want to loose what I have.

Kneedeep

I would be very interested to know your load details. My 308 likes the 137 so I figured I’d try the 138, but I’m flirting with the 154 as well. I have the mag length for the 163, but I’m not sure I want to go that slow.

 

[JTH]

Loaded up some of the 163 HHT’s out of a 300 PRC, running 3378 fps at the muzzle. Used them on a trip to Texas hunting Nilgai and whitetail. Also killed a bunch of javelina and hogs. The Nilgai made it about 70 yards, everything else dropped immediately.

Nilgai was 275 yards, estimated velocity at impact was about 2900 fps. Shot was broadside, placement behind the shoulder.

Entry:





Exit:



Internals liquified:

 

[JTH]

Here’s a video on the Texas whitetail with the 163 HHT

View attachment IMG_7686.mov

 

[JTH]

Impact velocity on the whitetail was about 3250 fps.

Whitetail entrance



Exit



Internals:

 

[Farleg]

Gday jth
Nice video
His legs buckled out in a cool pattern

Thanks for sharing

That nilgai definitely filled up with blood
On the blood did you notice that it stayed “liquid “ for longer & not congealed up as quickly
The blood keeps flowing with hammers in general

Cheers

 

[JTH]

Gday jth
Nice video
His legs buckled out in a cool pattern

Thanks for sharing

That nilgai definitely filled up with blood
On the blood did you notice that it stayed “liquid “ for longer & not congealed up as quickly
The blood keeps flowing with hammers in general

Cheers

Yes, lots of fluid sloshing around in the chest cavity of everything I’ve shot with them so far. Pretty impressive.